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    Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

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    33lima
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    Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by 33lima on Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:24 pm

    One thing that would be good to see, is the commanders standing (or sitting) lower in their hatch, when unbuttoned.

    This guy looks like he is on a parade or a route march, not a in combat zone:



    He should look more like this:



    Is there an easy way of lowering the commander (and where needed as well, the loader) figures, so they 'keep their heads down'? I looked at Lockie's post on vehicle config but I don't see a setting there, which will do this.

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    lockie
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by lockie on Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:37 am

    It's easy deal.
    Select dummy s_commander_out, then move it up, save.
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    Pointer

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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by Pointer on Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:55 pm

    lockie wrote:It's easy deal.
    Select dummy s_commander_out, then move it up, save.

    But it's so easy only with tanks without cockpit. For example, in the T-34, the "unbuttoners" are standing on their seats. So you mustn't move "s_****_out" chunks, unless you accept the devastation of the internal view.
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    33lima
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by 33lima on Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:02 pm

    Ah, good, thanks Lockie, I'll give that a try. Assume that is the object editor in use. Will give it a go.
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    33lima
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by 33lima on Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:49 pm

    OK, I'm doing something wrong. Loaded the tank in the Object Editor - GBR M4A1 - and it has just one s_commander 'fragment', s_commander_exit. Did the 3 steps - ticked 'Center', adjusted the Ty value from 0.0000 to 0.1, and clicked the 'Set' button. Then saved the file. No change to commander unbuttoned figure in mission. File re-opened again in the Editor, and Ty value has reverted to 0.00000. File is not 'Read only' and shows the correct 'Date modified'.  there don't seem to be any settings in the OE, that might be blocking what I'm trying to do. Baffled.

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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by Pointer on Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:33 pm

    @ 33lima

    s_commander_exit is the commander's escape position outside the tank.
    His unbuttoned position is s_commander_out (look for it as a child of db_head).
    And to lower the position use negative value of Ty.
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    33lima
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by 33lima on Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:01 pm

    Got it, thanks Pointer - I didn't see other s_commander values but found the _out one, when I expanded some of the other values. Trying it now!
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    33lima
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by 33lima on Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:24 pm

    Done! Looks much better, and the 1st person view is fine, too.



    Now I just need to edit the cfg file to reduce the chances of both left and right sandshields to zero (they are ok for Western Desert but no good for NW Europe) and lower the commander and loader figures for the Firelfies and any other British Shermans.
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    lockie
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by lockie on Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:57 pm

    Good work!
    To reduce chances of sandshield u've to open m4a1_75.engcfg
    find entries:
    d_wing_left01, 0.0;
    d_wing_right01, 0.0;
    d_wing_left02, 0.7;
    d_wing_right02, 0.7;
    change on
    d_wing_left01, 0.0;
    d_wing_right01, 0.0;
    d_wing_left02, 0.0;
    d_wing_right02, 0.0;
    save and play.

    Positions of other crew-members u may find in file places.
    I.e. for M4A175 it is
    #include "misc\m4a1_75_places.engcfg"
    Open file and u'll see smth. like that:
    wp_commander, 0x18, 0.03, commander, head3 , commander, sig_commander, commander, s_commander, s_commander_out, p_commander, p_commander_out, s_commander_exit, t34_commander, %ROLE_COMMANDER%;

    s_commander_out it is chank for the unbutton position.
    Also u may re-adjust position of the camera' commander.
    Open file:
    data\k42\loc_rus\levels\levels\cocpits\coc_m4a1_75.engcfg
    find entry:
    0.04, sig_commander, 60.0, 6, -175, 175, -75, 75, true, 6, 0, 0.2, 0.05;
    change on
    0.04, sig_commander, 60.0, 6, -175, 175, -75, 75, true, 6, 0, 0.5, 0.05;
    and camera will take upper position.
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    33lima
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by 33lima on Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:22 pm

    Thanks Lockie. So - have I got this right - sig_commander is the viewpoint, or eye-level, of the commander, in the 1st person view, and it is possible to set this to a different height than the 3rd person (external, 3rd person) view?

    This is useful, because in the Firefly, the .50 Cal MG is in front of the commander and now that I have lowered him, it likely interferes with his view. So it would be good if I can keel the figure low, but the 1st person eyepoint high, so that in that view you can see over the .50 Cal.

    Longer-term I would prefer to remove the .50 Cal from the Fireflies, because in most cases the British removed them (sometimes replacing them with .30 Cals). This was because with air superiority, an AA MG was not much use, and the guns caught on low branches, in orchards and woods.

    Lord Haw-Haw
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by Lord Haw-Haw on Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:41 pm

    I'm liking this. Would make a nice JSGM mod, activate when wanted. Germans too.
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    lockie
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by lockie on Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:54 pm

    33lima wrote:sig_commander is the viewpoint, or eye-level, of the commander, in the 1st person view
    Yes, u may setup camera position for any member in unbutton position. U may also define the angles of FOV: left/right, up/down and binocular magnification.
    http://stasf2008.ephpbb.com/t132-vehicle-config

    it is possible to set this to a different height than the 3rd person view?
    I've no idea. But why don't u use "free camera" mod? U may move the camera all over the polygon without limitation.
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    33lima
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by 33lima on Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:45 am

    I wanted to mimimise the extent to which the open hatch covers block the view of the unbuttoned Firefy TC. But I think I will just try changing the setting that controls the angle of the hatch cover. Now that the loader is also lower this can be done, just a little. I don't think the hatch rotates, on the SF Shermans.

    I may instead move the Firefly TC a littte further forward, so that he can have a wider field/angle of view, between the open hatch covers. At the moment he is sitting with his back against the rear of the hatch. If he sat in the centre, he would have a better field of view ahead to left and right. I need to experiment to find which value controls this.

    I have now settled on the 'early' model of the Firefly, which does not have the funky camouflage scheme (not realistic, apart from the disguised 17 Pdr barrel) nor the sandbags, not common on British tanks. Both TC and loader have been lowered a little more, since this pic was taken.



    it doesn't matter at the moment because as in real life, the player (as Troop Leader) in my modded unit files (same one I sent you for use with the Schulze's Diary missions) has a 75mm Sherman, not the Firefly. But I may make a version of the British 4-tank troops with the player in a Firefly, perhaps for late-war missions when I think there were more of them.
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    will73
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by will73 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:47 am

    Я б трохи посперечався, розміщення екіпажу робиться- не просто від балди, а з деякими урахуваннями.

    Зараз в грі 2 положення екіпажу в техніці і вигляд з люку (похідне положення)+ 1 положення при покидані танку.
    Коли якийсь член екіпажу АІ знаходиться в похідному положенні- при обстрілі поряд з танком він зразу ховаєтьсяя в танк.

    Розглянемо переваги пропонованого розміщеня і існуючого.
    1. Стандартне розіщення в люці (похідне положення ) має свої переваги як для гравця так і для АІ- краща можливість оглядати місцевість в бінокль особливо із за пагорба (особливо це буде відчутно при грі без маркерів)
    2. Також воно має і недолік- більша вразливісь члена екіпажу при обстрілі в районі танку уламками снарядів і кулями.

    Пропоноване розміщення суттєво послаблює переваги  огляду для гравця і АІ, але зменшує вразливість члена екіпажу при обстрілі.

    Ідеал це звичайно 3 положення
    1) похідне
    2) при  обстрілі в районі танку- пропоноване нове
    3) при обстрілі танку всередині
    ***
    I would like to have a bit of discussion, placing a crew is making "not just of noodle", but with some considering.

    At this moment the game has 2 positions for crewmembers in-unit/at-hatch:
    - buttoned(in battle)
    - unbuttoned(marsh)
    and there is one position during tank leaving.
    When a crew member AI is in the unbuttoned(during marsh) positions - he immediately hide in the tank during/under shelling.

    Let's have a look the advantages of the new position by 33lima and current one.
    1. A standard member placement inside of the hatch (unbuttoned/marsh position) has advantages for both as for the player and for AI - it is best opportunity to inspect the area, especially trough binoculars staying on the hill (it will be especially noticeable when playing without target markers).
    2. It has disadvantage also - crew member is more vulnerable during shelling in the area of the tank by shell fragments and bullets.

    Thus the new placement significantly reduces the FOV advantages given to the player and AI, but reduces the vulnerability of crew members during artillery shelling.

    The ideal decision would be to get 3 position:
    1) during marsh (unbuttoned, Commander has a higher position in the hatch)
    2) during shelling in the area of tank - the new position (unbuttoned, Commander has a lower position in the hatch)
    3) Commander inside the tank during direct shelling





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    Pointer

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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by Pointer on Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:18 am

    will73 wrote:The ideal decision would be to get 3 position:
    1) during marsh (unbuttoned, Commander has a higher position in the hatch)
    2) during shelling in the area of tank - the new position (unbuttoned, Commander has a lower position in the hatch)
    3) Commander inside the tank during direct shelling

    I agree 100%, but:
    1. Is that possible to add the 2nd unbuttoned position without access to the source code?
    2. I believe than earlier or later someone will create the cockpit for the Sherman, and then the unbuttoned positions will be determined as in case of the T-34 (the commander and the loader are standing on their seats).
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    33lima
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    Re: Lowering tank commander (& loader) in the unbuttoned position

    Post by 33lima on Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:35 pm

    I don't see much use for the 'march' (full height) position. A lower position only slightly reduces what you can see from the hatch in 1st person view. Hatch covers can get in the way with a lower viewpoint as we cannot move the Point of View (as with TrackIR) or rotate the hatch ring (Sherman, T-34-85). But even so, there is almost nothing that I could see from a higher viewpoint, that I cannot see from a lower one, plus I am safer and feel more like I an in a tank:



    The ability to select three different views might be good, except that the AI should be as fearful as a real person whose life is at risk. But if it has to be one or the other, I much prefer the lower view.

    SF battlefields are so small, that it is never entirely safe - you are always in a battlefield, where a tank commander is a priority target for any enemy with a rifle, never mind at risk from shell fragments. Despite removing the risk of graphics clipping or tearing, I always hated the high TC unbuttoned 1st person views in Panzer Elite; it feels much more like you are in the hatch of an AFV, with a lower view. The low TC viewpoint is a good feature of Steel Beasts.

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