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    US Guns, German Armour

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    woofiedog
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    US Guns, German Armour

    Post by woofiedog on Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:03 pm

    An article covering the war time test-firing of Allied firepower against German armor.



    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2998207/posts

    Quotes...

    The Panther tank came as a shock to US forces in the days after the Normandy invasion. Not that the Panther was unheard-of before D-Day. But somehow, the substantial information on the characteristics of the new German tank that were available to the US Army had not been correctly interpreted, and so its combat capabilities and its impact on operations had not been anticipated.

    To put more perspective on accuracy of British APDS at that time, I would note that the British Army’s own test results, obtained by two 17pr-armed Sherman Firefly tanks in September of 1944, were no better. These results and comments were published in Warrant Office Reports WO 291/1263 and WO 165/135 dated 22 September:

    400 yds APC hit 90.5% APDS hit 56.6%

    600 yds APC hit 73.0% APDS hit 34.2%

    800 yds APC hit 57.3% APDS hit 21.9%

    1000 yds APC hit 45.3% APDS hit 14.9%

    1500 yds APC hit 25.4% APDS hit 7.1%
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    frinik
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    Re: US Guns, German Armour

    Post by frinik on Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:26 am

    Very interesting articvle Woofiedog.Thanks for sharing.

    Although reading the article and being aware of the awesome Allied air power and absolute material advantage in very aspect( manpower, fuel, logistics etc) one wodners why they speak of a crisis? I think the impact of German armour was more psychological probably akin to the shock the Germans received in late 1941 when faced with increasing numbers of T34s and KV-1s which out-gunned and out-armoured their own tanks...

    In Normandy the issue of the campaign was never in doubt, the best the Germans could hope for was to inflict such casualties on the Allies that it would slow them down. They did partly succeed but in doing so whittled down their own scarce resources they could ill afford to replace.


    Last edited by frinik on Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:30 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: US Guns, German Armour

    Post by Tanker on Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:56 am

    It's easy in hindsight to now say it was never in doubt.  In the midst of the hedgerows where gaining each square cost dozens of casualties and hours and days of time, it must have seemed that the inferno that was the battle for Normandy during July, would go on forever and become a stalemate.  During that defensive battle air power counted for very little, except to isolate the Germans from reinforcement.

    I'm sure it must have been a crisis for allied tankers facing the Panther in a Sherman.  A high percentage of morale and victory in battle is pyschological, not just material.
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    frinik
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    Re: US Guns, German Armour

    Post by frinik on Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:51 am

    During that defensive battle air power counted for very little, except to isolate the Germans from reinforcement.

    Here I have to disagree with you! Airpower counted a lot in the Allies victory.German convoys were relentlessly attacked forcing German supply and armour units to move at night almost exclusively.The German army had lost close to 150 000 men in Normandy by mid July yet had received less than 10 000 replacement. That's a crisis! While the Typhoons and other close ground attack planes inflicted much less damage on German armour than they initally believed they still created a psychological fear which heavily weighed on your average landser or tank crewman as they faced unfavourable odds in Normandy. If facing better armour can be termed a crisis for the Allies how could the Germans describe the Allies complete mastery of the air?

    The word crisis is relative; let's compare that to the crisis which the Germans had to face in the three months running from May till August 1944. 2.5 million casualties, a 700 km retreat in the East with the collapse of an entire army group , a retreat from the beaches of Normandy to the Belgian border in the West with the loss of virtually the entire armoured forces in France, at least 100 km in Italy from May-June 1944... Now that's a crisis!

    The issue in Normandy was never in doubt; the Allies had proved both at Salerno and Anzio that while the Germans would fight bitterly contest every inch of land they were unable to stop the landings and push the Allies back into the sea. This was true at a time the Germans had stronger air forces( Sept 1943) to fight the Allies and this was even truer in summer 1944.  The Allies dreaded the losses they would need to sustain but I don't think they dreaded being defeated.


    Last edited by frinik on Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    33lima
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    Re: US Guns, German Armour

    Post by 33lima on Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:27 pm

    I suspect the inaccuracy of the 17 Pdr is over-stated. Other sources give quite different results:



    There are accounts of the fighting in Normandy which mention the 'inaccuracy' of 6 Pdr APDS (with I think the same sabot design and a muzzle brake) but the troops discovered that this was because their sights were not graduated for the round and they were not allowing for the flatter trajectory.

    Better to have the option, when your target needs it, of a round which WILL penetrate when it does hit, than one which will hit more often, but won't penetrate.

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    Re: US Guns, German Armour

    Post by woofiedog on Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:53 am

    Some other information about allied tests of tank guns vs german armor.

    Sherman vs Tiger

    http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2013/03/sherman-vs-tiger.html

    Soviet 85 mm Guns vs Tigers

    http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2013/03/soviet-85-mm-guns-vs-tigers.html

    100 mm gun vs Tiger II

    http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2013/05/100-mm-gun-vs-tiger-ii.html
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    lockie
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    Re: US Guns, German Armour

    Post by lockie on Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:53 pm

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    woofiedog
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    Re: US Guns, German Armour

    Post by woofiedog on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:33 pm

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    Re: US Guns, German Armour

    Post by woofiedog on Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:30 pm

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    frinik
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    Re: US Guns, German Armour

    Post by frinik on Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:37 pm

    Interesting article in a a forum discussing the respective merits of German versus Allied gun optics:


    http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/265163-german-optics/

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    Re: US Guns, German Armour

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