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    Weight of the vehicle

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    frinik
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by frinik on Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:49 am

    Especially those balancing on lying trees.

    Increasing the weight of the vehicle in the tech_cfg file is one possible solution. That's how I solved the issue of the Hetzer always bucking up when braking and sometimes flipping over. Until somebody found a more viable solution....
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    Pointer

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Pointer on Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:57 am

    frinik wrote:Increasing the weight of the vehicle in the tech_cfg file is one possible solution. That's how I solved the issue of the Hetzer always bucking up when braking and sometimes flipping over.
    Increasing the weight of the vehicle shouldn't solve this issue.
    If did, this is a proof that the rules of mechanics are not correctly implemented in SF.
    The only solution should be moving the centre of gravity down and/or backward.
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    frinik
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by frinik on Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:07 am

    Well, it did work for me Wink .It actually reduced the bucking to the point that my Hetzer would not flip over.... That being said I agree with you; moving the centre of gravity was the permanent solution however I did not do it because it was adjusted before I could get to it .As well,I wasn't using the Hetzer as a player's vehicle and didnot particularly care for the model in game.

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:48 pm

    Pointer wrote: If did, this is a proof that the rules of mechanics are not correctly implemented in SF.

    Yes, so this is why I didn't bothered with real weights, power values etc.

    It depends on what exactly you understand by the "rocking on a tree" problem - because it fully resolved it to me. I'm fully satisfied with this aspect now, no matter the theory. Of course, they rock on the trunks, as they should, but only on big ones  - and they rock in a very "heavy" way (not an effect of plastic tank anymore). It's hard to descibe, but for me the feelig is much, much more realistic now. Besides, even driving itself gives me a feeling of driving very heavy machine, which it didn't before (not to such extent). Even observing AI tanks shows it clearly.

    [Edit: aha, you were referring to a Hetzer problem, not the tree problem?...]

    After all, this is only speculation and imagination: we don't really KNOW how it shoul feel, do we?... Ha, I should probably ask my father to test it Smile - he drove T-34's a lot when in army. He was designated to the driver role because of his shortness; but, as he recalls, even for such a small guy the driver station was extremely narrow, hard to operate as hell.

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:46 pm

    Pointer wrote: Increasing the weight of the vehicle shouldn't solve this issue.

    I know what you mean and this is preciselty what I've written in my way-too-long Smile post above (1st page): the phycical values in SF seem to work only if certain aspects. Examples:

    1. Hetzer issue: increasing the vehicle mass increases the force of gravity effecting the vehicle, but doesn't effect the force of inertia (in other words: it glues vehicle to the ground, but it doesn't - like in a real world - "push" it forward after braking).

    2. Projectile mass issue: I've found out that increasing the shell mass increases (dramatically) its penetrational ability, but doesn't shorten the shot distance and/or its ballistic arc.

    That's why I philosophized so much about the physical values in SF being not the real-world values, but rather simplified versions of them. So - in the examples above:

    1. we should think of a vahicle mass not as of the real mass, but rather as of somewhat abstract coefficent effecting the force of gravity effecting the vehicle;

    2. and the shell (projectile?) mass is just another penetration coefficient (maybe more that this, but not a mass in a full physial meaning).

    There are lots of such inaccuracies here. I felt lots of them when experimenting with SF mechanic universe, but hard to pinpoint them accurately.
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    Weight of the vehicle

    Post by frinik on Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:48 pm

    It's a game first and foremost and moreover it's called a simulator which in Latin means to pretend. Most games use hit points or some variant to reproduce real life penetrations and damage. Everything we see in a game is an illusion, the people, the models, the sky, the clouds, the vegetation etc...
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    lockie
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by lockie on Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:46 pm

    Stah wrote:I'm fully satisfied with this aspect now, no matter the theory. driving itself gives me a feeling of driving very heavy machine, which it didn't before (not to such extent). Even observing AI tanks shows it clearly.
    It sounds interesting!
    Could u enclose here a new mass/weight for some tanks, i.e. T-34, Pz.IV?
    I'd like to test it.
    In fact, STA mod was made from the very beginning as mod to support EXACTLY the missions and have a fun Basketball  Thus, realistic parameters are not the base of this mod, coz many vehicles were adjusted during mission creating. Well, I must say that almost every tank has his personal mission and properly adjusted, but for the last time some tanks didn't receive missions, because of the new Campaign "Fury". Though, we're not in hurry Cool

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:54 pm

    Oh, I can see you cut his topic in half - and there was, on the beggining, my old post answering you questions partialyy. So here it is, for the sake of order:

    Of course. This is exactly what I did [edit: referring to increasing vehicle weight]. Nothing fancy, really, that's why I didn't make a big discovery of it Smile
    In addition I increased (proportionally) engine power. And spring stiffness (3rd wheels parameter), but this one - not proportionally (this parameter shold be set up individually for each vehicle, so as not to cause too rough a ride).
    My idea of weighing up came up some months ago, when I started driving ultra-light German tanks (first two Panzers especially, but also Fiat and (35)t), which are just undriveable in plants covered area. I started by multiplying weight and power exactly by two, then by three, than by four, just as an experiment (in "four" mode they were sitting on ground, unable to move, so I came up with the spring stiffing up scenario). If I remebmer correctly, 2x proved to be satisfying multiplier (maybe 2.5 - on the lightest machines). This is just a matter of taste, of how you feel the machine when driving. Of course I didn't want to mke them uber-powered-tree-crushing machines - these changes should be made with caution, to preserve overall character of each vehicle.
    As an afterthougt I experimented with uneven spring stiffness (different for middle and outer wheels), and with the... (what's the English word??) - of how much up and down wheel goes (12th and 13th parameter). Interesting stuff - but just as geek fun, without much impact on playing style (ok, overall stiffness of vehicle has great impact - it affects the gunsight bouncing speed/ratio after a hard stop...)
    Now I gradually create my humble, little mod, adding to it edited version of tech_cfg file of every tank I happen to play. Not every tank needs such a significant amendment, of course.

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:09 pm

    To make things clear: I said above "If I remeber correctly", because I lost those files 'cause of one unpleasant trick of my HD... Now I bulit it anew - but really, no big magic here: just multiplying mass and power by 2 - and, if driving seems funny, changing it a bit. Spring stiffness tweaking is also sometimes not necessary (it wasn't for example in T-34/76: they were sitting a bit lower, but that's all).

    Of course, I may submit it as a new mod, but after completing whole list - now, after a HD crash, I have T-28, T-34/76, Jagdpanther, Jagdpanzer IV and both KWs.

    And one more "but" - I'm afraid that the feeling of how the tank drives is a matter of personal imagination. I'm fully prepared for you trying these multiplicators and sayin: "WTF??' Shocked Laughing
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by lockie on Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:16 pm

    Stah wrote:T-34/76, Jagdpanther, Jagdpanzer IV and both KWs.
    OK, let's have a look on T-34/76. Can u upload this file?

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:16 pm

    lockie wrote:Can u upload this file?

    Of course, but - how?

    Btw - sorry, it's t34/42.

    I got to disappear for a moment, but these are my values for T-34/42 (both sections of file, 'cause I don't what model the second one is for):
    mass = 62000;, eng_power = 900; spring stiffness (3rd parameter in wheels section - ok, I know u know it:) ) = 800000;


    Last edited by Stah on Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    lockie
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by lockie on Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:37 pm

    Stah wrote:
    lockie wrote:Can u upload this file?
    Of course, but - how?
    Btw - sorry, it's t34/42.
    Just upload the file t34_42.engcfg on www.4shared.com and give a link. U've to be registered there.

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:42 pm

    Ok, done. Sorry if doesn't work, it was my first attempt:

    http://www.4shared.com/file/4jvR8-cwce/t34_42.html

    I'm curious what you'll say. The values maybe not optimal, though. I just changed them and they worked for me. Maybe some other values would work even better.
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by lockie on Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:50 pm

    Stah wrote:Ok, done. Sorry if doesn't work, it was my first attempt:
    http://www.4shared.com/file/4jvR8-cwce/t34_42.html
    I'm curious what you'll say. The values maybe not optimal, though. I just changed them and they worked for me. Maybe some other values would work even better.
    OK, I've downloaded the file. During next couple days I'll have a look and test, then share my opinion Surprised
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Pointer on Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:37 pm

    Stah wrote:[Edit: aha, you were referring to a Hetzer problem, not the tree problem?...]
    Yes, it was about Hetzer

    Stah wrote:1. Hetzer issue: increasing the vehicle mass increases the force of gravity effecting the vehicle, but doesn't effect the force of inertia (in other words: it glues vehicle to the ground, but it doesn't - like in a real world - "push" it forward after braking).
    This is exactly what I meant.

    Stah wrote:This is exactly what I did [edit: referring to increasing vehicle weight]. Nothing fancy, really, that's why I didn't make a big discovery of it Smile
    In addition I increased (proportionally) engine power. And spring stiffness (3rd wheels parameter), but this one - not proportionally (this parameter shold be set up individually for each vehicle, so as not to cause too rough a ride).
    OK, after increasing the weight and compensation of the engine power and the suspension rigidity you have obtained the proper dynamics of the vehicle and proper work of its suspension. But what about bridges and swamplands? No problems with multiplicated weight?

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:25 pm

    Pointer wrote:But what about bridges and swamplands? No problems with multiplicated weight?

    You mean the possibility of breaking the bridge? You got me here - I didn't tested it, frankly Shocked  But I drove such weighed tanks a lot, so I probably drove throuh some bridges. Are they breakablem at all?...

    As to the swamps - no effect of drowning (unfortunately ) Smile  No, didn't noticed any adverse effects / strange behaviour...

    Edit: you know what? Your bridge question has awaked the tweaking side of my nature Very Happy  I'm creating the heaviest ww2 tank right now and looking for some bridge! I'll report the outcome soon. Swimming trunks prepared...


    Last edited by Stah on Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Bridge test

    Post by Stah on Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:50 pm

    Okay, the news: the SF bridges are steel bridges in disguise... My 120-tonne T-34/42 went through bridges in Chepel numerous times with various speeds, stayed on them, etc - no problem here.

    As to the swamp question: 10 minutes of driving in the swamp region west of Chepel revealed no problems.

    But there is another issue - these steel, welded tank obstacles - I assume that for the game engine going throug them is the same process as going through tree trunks: another reason to be cautious when weighing up the tanks. 120-tonne monster went through them with almost no problem at high speed and little problem at low - but I didn't initially suggest multiplicating weight by 4, only about 2.

    And one more thing, just to be precise: weighing up and powering up changes a bit the way you operate tank in a driver position (changing the gears), but: 1. it can be noticed only by hardcore drivers, imho; 2. it's solvable for sure by tweaking the gearbox settings (too much for me, I'm afraid).
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by lockie on Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:08 pm

    OK, I've tested overweighted tank and have to say it looks much better than before. There is no problem to go over the trunks now. Everything seems fine so far, but I think all tanks parameters as for transmission should be changed respectively.
    Conclusion:
    So far it looks fine, but I don't know how it'll effect the whole gameplay. It must be checked out properly. Right now would be good to make a mod, let's say "overweighted tanks" and present it to SF Community.

    Stah wrote:SF bridges are steel bridges in disguise... My 120-tonne T-34/42 went through bridges in Chepel numerous times with various speeds, stayed on them, etc - no problem here.
    That's interesting investigation. Could u change bridge flag and move over the bridge once again?
    data\k42\loc_rus\levels\levels\obj_cfg\objects\builds.engcfg
    entry
    bridge0()
    {
    //тип объекта
    type = %OT_BUILDING%;
    //имя сетки
    mesh = bridge0;
    //имя объекта
    name = txt_ob_bridge0;
    //количество лод уровней
    mesh_lods= 0;
    //материал
    material = wood;
    //зашаренная сетка
    shared = true;

    //принимать тени 0x01, принимать гусеницу 0x02
    flags = 0x0b;
    on
    flags = 0x09;

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:00 pm

    lockie wrote: Could u change bridge flag and move over the bridge once again?

    I just did that - no difference. Not destroyable at all.

    Did you expect the bridge to become destroyable?
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Pointer on Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:22 am

    Stah wrote:Did you expect the bridge to become destroyable?

    Both unmoded and STA wooden bridges may be destroyed by artillery fire (needed about 20 pcs of HE 76mm shells).
    What about breaking down under heavy tank?
    I have met such situation twice with KV-1, but the bridge was partially destroyed by artillery fire.
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by lockie on Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:34 am

    Stah wrote:Did you expect the bridge to become destroyable?
    Yes, it is strange that bridge wasn't destroyed.
    Try lower the next parameters:
    imp_dem =1000
    imp=1000
    imp2=1000

    imp_dem it is destroying after shot
    imp it is destroying after push
    imp2 it is moving after push

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:24 pm

    Pointer wrote:but the bridge was partially destroyed by artillery fire.

    Must have been effect of fire then. I reported effects of my tests 3 posts above - 120 tonnes didn't break it.
    Btw - these wooden bridges and 30-40-50-tonne vehicles... A bit unrealistic, to say the least... Shocked Very Happy

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:28 pm

    lockie wrote: Try lower the next parameters:
    imp_dem =1000
    imp=1000
    imp2=1000

    Ok, I'll try it soon.

    One more question: how to multi-quote? I tried these buttons in all the ways I was able to invent, and can't get the quotes from several posts in my new post window/area...
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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by lockie on Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:14 pm

    One more question: how to multi-quote?
    I just press icon `Quote` then insert phrase.

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    Re: Weight of the vehicle

    Post by Stah on Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:20 pm

    lockie wrote:
    Try
    lower the next parameters:
    imp_dem =1000
    imp=1000
    imp2=1000

    Ok, so here we are:

    1. Lowering those params made no difference (I tried two values: 1000
    and 1, plus tank overweighted - this time - to 150 tonnes!). Bridge
    doesn't break under the tank, and I couldn't crush it with HE, as
    Pointer suggested (ok, probably shot it too lightly). Don't get, if they
    are what the are, it should work - but there's a lot of strange things
    goin on in SF universe (see point 5)

    2. Those flags you suggested to change - they have nothing to do with
    being destroyable - they make shadows and traces of tracks to appear on
    bridge surface. After converting text I saw clearly: "prinimajet tieni /
    prinimajet gusienicu", BUT...

    3. ...but what is responsible for setting pattern of bridge destrution
    is this tiny entry in common_res file: "bridge0_d" (section
    "or_agroups()") - too much params here to play with them blindly,
    though.

    4. I wrote earlier about the vehicle mass not affecting the force of
    inertia of vehicle when braking (what Pointer pointed out talkin about
    Hetzer issue) - now after some tweaking I see that to make the inertia
    force work the way one wants it to, one have to change the jx, jy, jz -
    these are moments of intertia for three axis of vehicle - and this is
    beautiful, because this gives us the possibility of making small heavy
    object behave like big heay, or big light, or whatever (after doubling
    them for T-26 no more spinning like a ballet dancer). To be clear - I'm
    not suggesting they should be changed, of course. Ok, maybe you knew it,
    I didn't Wink

    5. One of the things I'm currently striving to fix is this horrible
    gunsight flowing and jerking (jerks are generated by the driver) - on
    some tanks only. I made a topic 2 days (?) ago about it (how to paste
    a link to a topic?)
    and Donken enlightened me that is has smth to
    do with wheels and tracks (cpillars - "gusienicy" Very Happy ) sections in
    tech_cfg. I tweaked with them and found that in T-26 EVERY change of
    springs parameters (displacement, rigidity, whatnot) buries my T-26 into
    ground (e.g. it generates half-buried - at various depths, depending on
    the degrees of changes) - Shocked Shocked

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