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    Way too slow rotation of periscopes

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    Stah

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    Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by Stah on Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:39 pm

    The issue that bugged me from my first encounter with SF is waay too low, in my opinion, rotation speed of periscopes (T/Y keys). Let's look at it functionally: the main role of periscope is to give an observer an opportunity to scan surrounding area AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, because rotating the whole turret (which, without periscope and cupola, would be the only option) is obviously too slow for this purpose (and, in real life, power-consuming, if done with an electic drive). In every tank movie we can see commander not slowly rotating periscope and contemplating the landscape, but practically jerking periscope handle in an attempt to get the 360-degrees awareness of the ever-changing situation around his tank in few seconds, which is always decisive of life/death... And you really don't need to see it in a movie to understand that it is a proper and instinctive way to use this instrument during combat.
    But what we get in game is periscope with rotating speed equal to the rotating speed of the turret, which enforces on player the absurd practice of using the gunsight instead of periscope: why should I look for aims with periscope and, having found them, aim for them with the turret, if in twice less time I can have them in my crosshair? Additionally, it discourages players (me, at least Smile from taking a commander seat at all (I refer to playing without aim indicators, which is the way I play SF from the beginning).
    Of course, there are cupolas and holes, and you can use them, but they don't offer optical magnification and the viewing comfort of periscope - and above all, I'm not talking about impossibility of playing with so slow periscope rotation, but about the fact, that it forces an unrealistic tactics/habits on player. As for simulator (especially for, imho, THE BEST ww2 tank simulator/game ever, may I add) enforcing on player a non-realistic way of using instruments is rather a drawback.
    I tried many times to find a solution to this problem myself and make periscopes rotate muuch faster (and, ideally, with two speeds: 1. fast and 2. furious Smile) - I spent hours analyzing all the accesible files in SF - and found nothing. I'm afraid now that it is hard-coded feature, but this is the rare situation in which I REALLY hope to be wrong Smile.
    I even tried to mount periscope sight (a new camera) as an new element, to be controlled by arrow keys, as turret is - and then define a high speed for it in tech_cfg file of the vehicle - but I failed (I guess, my knowledge about Object Editor is way too low, and maybe it is impossible at all?).
    Does anyone see this as a problem, as I do, and could show me any solution?
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    frinik
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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by frinik on Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:50 pm

    I personally use the page up and down keys when I assuming the role of the commander and it's quite fast. You move what one angle view to the other in a second or two? Not sure about the T and Y keys as I have never used them for the periscope.
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    Stah

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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by Stah on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:03 pm

    Firnik,
    You're referring to changing visors (PgUp/Down) - and one of them is periscope (if it is mounted on a tank, of course). And I was talking about rotating this periscope, which is done by T/Y. Never tried this, really?

    Donken,
    I know this file and its pamaters and experimenten wit them a lot. But there is no solution to my problem here, because rotational speed of periscoe is rotational speed of camera. It is not connected with sight configuration (there is no such parameter, it was the first thing I tried).

    Stah

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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by Stah on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:10 pm

    Btw, I looked for any remark of this issue on the Web, not only in this forum, and found nothing. It seems that it is a problem only for me (that's why I descibed it in such a detailed way Very Happy ). I'm shocked, 'cause in my opinion this is the biggest drawback in the topic of steering and handling the tank in SF - which is, besides this, designed in absolutely great way.
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    lockie
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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by lockie on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:15 pm

    Stah wrote:The issue that bugged me from my first encounter with SF is waay too low, in my opinion, rotation speed of periscopes (T/Y keys).
    I had the same issue, but as my point the rotating speed is a very faster! Laughing
    I'll explain:
    1. the main function of the periscope it is observing. That's why gunsight reticle is not so detailed as periscope one(gunner's gunsight).
    2. the second function of the periscope is - estimating the distance to the target! Comannder have a look through gunsight periscope, see the target and give the distance to the gunner. BUT in SF u can't rotate periscope gently. The step of rotating is a very harsh. That's why I tried to find the way how to decrease the speed of rotating. I'm pretty sure it's possible to make it with a HEX editing. But it takes too much time and I don't know when I'll be ready to do it.
    3. third function of the periscope is aiming/targeting. It is a spare gunsight, which can be used as a additional reticle.

    Stah

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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by Stah on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:19 pm

    I always play with external view disabled - in fact, as I wrote, I fell in love with this game the day I tried this (before I only liked it very much Very Happy ) It's hard as hell sometimes, but hey, this is the whole point of playing simulator, isn't it?
    So you agree and confirm that there is no way to speed this T/Y camera up? This is what I feared. So slow a scope is practically useless imho Crying or Very sad
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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by lockie on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:32 pm

    Stah wrote:
    So you agree and confirm that there is no way to speed this T/Y camera up?
    Actually, u may replace periscope as a turret. Thus u may change the speed. But it'll bring a lot of headache and confusing.
    In case u've a skill in HEX editing u may try to use program "soft ice". U need to know a base command of Assembler. Try to investigate how keys "T/Y" assigned to the rotating.
    I think it should be here base_main.codelib or here basic_input.codelib.

    Stah

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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by Stah on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:49 pm

    lockie wrote: I had the same issue, but as my point the rotating speed is a very faster! Laughing

    That was unexpected! Ok, so maybe my idea of using the scope - as a tool for getting instant awareness of situation - was not realistic... But this how I saw scope udes in movies, and this how it seems to be logical in tank without cupola - T-34/43 for instance. What other tool should you use to check out what is beside your back, other than gunsight reticle, which would be (I think) non-realistic action (I think they in such a tank they used scope to get overall awareness, and ONLY THEN rotated the whole turret, aiming it at a target). The whole issue is connected with another thing - I feel the turret speeds in SF are too high, aren't they?
    So - to summarize my point - I suspect that realistic way of action is this: 1. commander finds target(s), prioritize them (and for this he needs the fast, hand-rotated scope, in a lack of cupola); 2. commander points these targets (in a proper order) to the gunner, who is rotating the slow-moving and power-consuming turret. Wasn't it done this way?

    Stah

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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by Stah on Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:05 pm

    Of course, I know that in T-34/43 the commander and gunner are the same person, but the issue is the same: rotating turret (when looking through the gunsight) is way to slow method to get situational awareness, and there's no other visior which you can use for this purpose, besides periscope. So you grab it and glance rapidly here and there to keep track of combat situation - I saw it countless times in movies (70% of these in our "4 tanksmen and a dog series" Very Happy ) and it always seemed to me as the only way of performing combat in a ww2 tank. Cupola (if it is) seems to be intended to look for only short distances.
    I'm starting to think there are 2 reasons this issue never came out:
    1. (maybe) I'm the only masochist playing only without external view Smile
    2. (maybe) turrets in SF are too fast, and because of that gunsights can be used as a periscope. But this is ahistorical imho (sorry for being such a wise-ass Cool )
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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by lockie on Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:04 pm

    Stah wrote:I feel the turret speeds in SF are too high, aren't they?
    Well, in a way yes, but there are two sped: hand and electro-driving.

    So - to summarize my point - I suspect that realistic way of action is this: 1. commander finds target(s), prioritize them (and for this he needs the fast, hand-rotated scope, in a lack of cupola)
    As my point rotating of periscope is too high, coz I can't orient reticle to estimate the distance. I need more gentle moving(short step).


    2. commander points these targets (in a proper order) to the gunner, who is rotating the slow-moving and power-consuming turret. Wasn't it done this way?
    I think, yes.

    Stah wrote:Of course, I know that in T-34/43 the commander and gunner are the same person, but the issue is the same: rotating turret (when looking through the gunsight) is way to slow and there's no other visior which you can use for this purpose
    I think, it's a quite realistic way. T-34 had a very bad observing. It is obvious fact. Commanders prefer to use Pz.III as exactly Commander tank, because of the excellent observing.

    I'm starting to think there are 2 reasons this issue never came out:
    1. (maybe) I'm the only masochist playing only without external view  Smile
    U've to put out the head (unbuttoned position).

    2. (maybe) turrets in SF are too fast, and because of that gunsights can be used as a periscope. But this is ahistorical imho (sorry for being such a wise-ass  Cool )
    U may decrease the speed.
    head1, db_head, d_gun_mask, 180, 180,  20, 3,20, 5, 30, 0;


    Last edited by lockie on Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Stah

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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by Stah on Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:12 am

    lockie wrote: As my point rotating of periscope is too high, coz I can't orient reticle to estimate the distance. I need more gentle moving (short step).

    Yes - but only if the enemy is so kind as to wait for your scope to rotate and catch him in the reticle. When I'm playing, they rarely are Very Happy But I get your point - I didn't think of estimating distance, because I always do it intuitively. I don't know how, but after some time of playing certain tank I start to just feel the distance... And, after all, we have the voice estimation... which leads to my another question: why are the voice indications of targets still active when you're playing as commander? This is the AI commander voice, as I understand it, so shouldn't it be turn off when YOU are the commander? This could be a real uber-hardcore setting: play as gunner, listening to the commands, knowing that Dad is watching Very Happy - or become a Big Chief and be forced to look for dangers without any help from outside, to lead your men safely through the battle... I love the idea! Do you think it's possible to turn off commander voice when in his seat?
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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by lockie on Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:05 am

    Stah wrote:
    Yes - but only if the enemy is so kind as to wait for your scope to rotate and catch him in the reticle.
    Yeap, u're right Smile
    That's why I don't use periscope. If I need to have a look around I had my Commander in unbuttoned position. Anyway, would be good idea try to find in code the speed of the periscope rotating.

    we have the voice estimation...

    That's a problem. In my version I've deleted voice with distance. Now I'm going to delete distance from subtitles.

    which leads to my another question: why are the voice indications of targets still active when you're playing as commander?
    I think this is bug.

    Do you think it's possible to turn off commander voice when in his seat?
    I think, it's impossible. Unfortunately, SF is no longer supported and this game is getting abandoned. It's just a matter of time.
    There is only one chance to bring the life in SF: get the new version - "Fall Blau".

    Stah

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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by Stah on Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:29 pm

    lockie wrote: That's why I don't use periscope.

    That's exactly why I don't use periscope too Smile The whole ruckus I made around this periscope speed is because I'd like to start using it - exactly as I descibed, with realistic technique: first fast periscope to locate and prioritize targets (ok, distance estimation after, sure) and then (slowed down in tech_cfg) turret on targets. Now I can't do that this way, but I would like to - that was my point from the beginnig Smile

    Stah

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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by Stah on Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:54 pm

    lockie wrote: There is only one chance to bring the life in SF: get the new version - "Fall Blau".

    What do you mean by "get" the FB? I heard this project was abandoned... Any new rumours??! It would be great bounce
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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by lockie on Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:35 pm

    Stah wrote:What do you mean by "get" the FB?
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    Stah

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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by Stah on Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:43 pm

    lockie wrote:
    Stah wrote:What do you mean by "get" the FB?
    Miracle! Cool Basketball santa

    HAHAHAHA!! lol!

    Ok, I got it... Crying or Very sad
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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by 33lima on Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:28 pm

    Why delete the range estimate from subtitles?
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    Re: Way too slow rotation of periscopes

    Post by lockie on Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:31 pm

    33lima wrote:Why delete the range estimate from subtitles?
    To make the life harder! bom

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