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    World War 2 History

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    col.moore

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    World War 2 History

    Post by col.moore on Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:02 pm

    Good Morning Gentlemen's!

    I'm here starting a new topic in the intention of us all to discuss the Greatest conflict of the mankind so far.

    My idea here is to maintain in a single topic the whole study and discussions not only about the Tanks and tactics, but about the deeper details, like the creation of new technologies (Tanks, Weapons, Uniform, Meal, Aircraft and others), the generals whose took place in the vitals decisions of the war, the mistakes, the great bur forgotten Achievements (in both sides "Axis" and "Allied").

    Our intention here (I will have the support form Lockie) is 100% educational.

    We don't want a massive political discussion (like defending the nacional Socialism or Comunism or any other kind of ideology).

    The rules are obvious but, just as a reminder:

    - Do Not argue
    - Do NOT use any kind of pejorative language
    - Respect each other opinion.
    - If your information is wrong, be humble and admit it or do your best to do not generate an aggressive kind of answer.

    Thanks and have Fun.
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    col.moore

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    Brazilian Army in World War 2

    Post by col.moore on Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:34 pm

    Yes, I think that many of you guys have never heard of it, but yes the Brazilian Army fought in the World War two, and as a Brazilian I 'll try to tell you gentlemen's our war.

    We have been attacked by German U boat in the south Atlantic ocean in Late '42 where they sunk 2 of our cargo ships killing several civilians.

    The interesting fact was that the Brazilian Government (beside being known as neutral at the war), we were actually buying weapons, uniform and selling Rubber to the German army at the time (the rubber selling proceeded secretly until the end of the war). When the first Brazilian soldiers start to arrive in Italy, the Americans start mocking them because they had the same military uniform than the Germans. The history books will say that we cut relations with the german right after Pearl Harbor and we start to help the Americans in their war effort by allowing them to use our Port as a short way to north Africa, well, that's partially true, we did provide a few air bases and ports for the Americans but it wasn't that fast. Our President Getulio Vargas was known to be a Fascism sympathizer, and as I told earlier, our commercial relationship with the Nazi Germany have make a small disturbance in our relations with the Americans, but, the Americans had made a few good offers (To help us Militarily, financially and in the pres. Getulio Vargas against the communism opposition), and in mid. 1942 the American Presence start to grow stronger than the German.

    The main airbase used by the American Air force was in the city of Natal at north east of Brazil, there was where not only soldiers and Equipment make their way to Africa, but also where our troop receive most of their combat training and new American gear (it worth to mention that most of our troop went to the war using the old K-98 rifle and the 1928 Thompson smg, it took a while until  our forces start to use the M-1 Garand, M-1 Carbine and M-1 Thompson).

    The Brazilian Expedicionary Force (Força Expedicionaria Brasileira - FEB in portuguese) was a part of the American 15th Army Group, under Command of the Field Marshal Harold Alexander (later General Mark Clark), via the U.S. Fifth Army Lieutenant General Mark Clark (later Lieutenant General Lucian Truscott) and the US IV Corps of Major General Willis D. Crittenberger.

    We were the only country from South America to fight with the Allies, as the Argentinians and Chileans ware supporting the Nazi Germany providing them naval bases (including U-boat assistance and supplies).

    *I will post the sources and videos in the last leg of the post.





    To be Continue....
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    lockie
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by lockie on Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:44 pm

    col.moore wrote:The Brazilian Expedicionary Force (Força Expedicionaria Brasileira - FEB in portuguese) was a part of the American 15th Army Group
    This is incredible history! Suppose, we may add a special Brazilian platoon to make a represented mission Cool
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    col.moore

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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by col.moore on Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:48 pm

    That would be Awesome!

    Coming soon a few pictures of the Brazilian armored unit (basically Sherman's and Stuat's and a few half tracks)...

    I think that even a German carer in the Mediterranean (Italy and Greece), theater would be awesome, the hardest job would be work in the Italians tanks...
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    kapulA
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by kapulA on Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:03 pm

    That and the new buildings and stone walls, and various flora (olives, oranges, cypress trees and mediterranean pines, endemic bushes etc), + new infantry and AT guns...
    It would really be a large amount of work for a theater (Italy and Sicily) where tanks were of limited use. Neutral
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    col.moore

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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by col.moore on Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:16 pm

    Ohh Come on now... we could just make a few missions... here in the Wikipedia I've founded a few of samples them:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/508th_Heavy_Panzer_Battalion

    Don't need to be 100% accurate... anyway, we could use a few foliage from the "Villers Bocage", and about the buildings... I think that is the easiest thing to do... the real job it would be to create the roads and the Hills... but anyway, nothing that a good will and disposition could make.... kkkkk =p
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    col.moore

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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by col.moore on Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:01 pm

    Continuing...

    Later in 1944, the Brazilian Forces joined the Allies in Europe to help the actions in Italy, after a gross part of the more experienced troops left for Anzio, South of France and even Normandy. With very few time for proper training, the Brazilian troops compensated with great character and capacity of adaptation to war conditions in a very tough terrain and climate, being well honored by all the staff of the Allied High Command during their participation in the Italian Campaign. Many Brazilian soldiers were condecorated with the highest medals of the American Forces. This has been the finest hour for the Brazilian Expeditionary Force (FEB).
    In the first days of July, 1944, the first Echelon of the Brazilian Expeditionary Force ­ FEB – left to Europe, aboard the American ship General Mann, in a total of 5.081 men. Originally, the ship should be going to Argel, where the troops would get preliminary training before landing in Italian soil. However, the convoy headed straight to Naples, where the troops disembarked and waited to join US Task Force 45. Later, on the 22nd July, two more ships, Gen Mann and Gen Meigs, left to Europe, with the Second and Third Echelons, with 10.369 men total. The last two Echelons, Fourth, with more 4.722 men and Fifth,with 5.128 men, left Brazil on the last days of November and first days of February ’45, totaling 25.300 men.
    The troops were moved to Tarquinia, 350 Km North of Naples, where the US 5th Army, commanded by the famous Gen Mark Clark, was based. The Brazilian troops were incorporated to the 4th Army Core, commanded by Gen Crittenberger. On the 19th August, Churchill himself visited the 5th Army in Cecina, where he was told that Brazilian troops were part of the Guard of Honor. He directed some of his speech to the Brazilian troops that now joined the war effort in Italy.
    The Brazilian troops were filling the gap left by several divisions of the 5th US Army and French Expeditionary Force that went to the invasion in the South of France. This straight action with the fresh Brazilian troops was a necessity, due to the great operation at Anzio, to where so many American and British troops were issued. The overall command of Brazilian troops was made from the High Command of the 15th Allied Army Group, headed by Gen Mark Clark and Gen Crittenberger (5th Army and 4th Army Core, USA), Field marshal Alexander (8th Royal Army, England) together with the high staff of the Brazilian Army, Gen Euríco Dutra, Gen Mascarenhas de Moraes, Gen Zenóbio da Costa and Gen Cordeiro de Farias (commanders of several Infantry and Artillery Divisions among the whole of the Brazilian Expeditionary Force).

    A very interesting fact is that on November 16th, FEB occupied Massarosa. Two days later, Camaiore and other small towns and cities on the way North. During this period, the Brazilians G.I.s, or “pracinhas”, created the FEB symbol, consisting of a badge with a snake over National colors (Green and Yellow), with a smoking pipe in mouth. This was a big irony to answer a group of the society opposing Brazil entering the conflict, who used to say that it was easier to see a snake smoking than to see Brazilian troops sent to fight the war…




    To be Continue....
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    woofiedog
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by woofiedog on Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:45 pm

    If the Brazilian Expeditionary Force (FEB) crossed over a bridge while in Italy, most likely it was one of the bridges and the many other structures that my father-in-law helped build while serving in Italy with the 5th Army, 175th Engineer Regiment.

    He was also in the first landings at Casablanca, North Africa and also for the landings at Salerno, Italy and continued up to the Po River Valley where he was wounded and sent back home.

    He gave me his hand book that was put out by his unit at the end of the war called " The Road To Rome", which I still have.

    There are some notations at the end of the book, one of which is from the Brazilian delegate to the French Committee of National Liberation...

    "Please accept my warmest congratulations for the splendid victory of the gallant Fifth Army. The Brazilian people will share the pride of the people of the U.S.A. upon learning that Allied forces were led to Rome by an American General."

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    lockie
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by lockie on Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:51 pm

    Woofie, this is a great story!
    Could u upload a screenshot with this book and annotation? I think, this is s very interesting!

    PS
    If u don't mind, I may use it as a background image for the mission if any.
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    col.moore

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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by col.moore on Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:07 pm

    WAW, that's Awesome Woffie... U must to show us that book!
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    woofiedog
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by woofiedog on Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:55 pm

    cheers

    lockie... If u don't mind, I may use it as a background image for the mission if any.

    Sure, no problem. Smile

    Quotation is 6th on the page below.

    There is another larger volume book which was given to my son after the passing of my father-in-law.



       
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    col.moore

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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by col.moore on Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:26 pm

    WAW... that's awesome! And your father-in-law looks such a happy person in this pecture! KKKKK

    Well, I think that will be an amazing mission for the SF... not only because will have an whole new history line in the game but because more people will know that the Allies, wasn't only about the UK, US, France and USSR... there is a whooole lot of other nations involved.
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    woofiedog
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by woofiedog on Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:40 pm

    col.moore...   because more people will know that the Allies, wasn't only about the UK, US, France and USSR... there is a whooole lot of other nations involved.

    Yes, fully agree with your statement that more information/material needs to be brought up concerning the contributions that many countries made during WWII.

    Just the composition of Allied forces fighting during the Italian Campaign were comprised of the following nations and highlights your above commit.

    United Kingdom
    United States
    Free France
    Canada
    India
    Poland
    New Zealand
    South Africa
    Brazil
    Kingdom of Greece
    Mandatory Palestine
    Belgium
    Australia
    Czechoslovakia
    Italian Resistance
    Kingdom of Italy



    Last edited by woofiedog on Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    col.moore

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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by col.moore on Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:45 pm

    Continuing...

    In October, FEB conquered Monte Prano, controlled the Sercchio river valley and Castelnuovo, with first significant losses. Later that month, troops were directed to the Reno valley. This region, at the feet of the Appenines, was the place where FEB would spend the next three months, facing rigorous winter and the fierce resistance of the German forces up on the mountains and hills, the so called Bernhard and Gustav Lines, strong defenses made by the Axis to delay the advance of troops.
    It was there where one of the great achievements of the Brazilian troops took place: Monte Castelo. In the end of November, several attempts were made to kick the Germans out of this hill, from where they could spot all movements of Allied troops.

    The freshly created and debuting in the front 10th US Mountain Division, joined FEB in an 18Km front, having the task of clearing Monte Belvedere from the Germans atop of it. The days went by with head-on clashes with the well nested Germans, clearing off mine fields, “booby traps”, ambushes, machine gun nests, all this under a heavy barrage of grenades and mortar fire. It was not until the 21st of February, 1945, that finally the Germans were battered off Monte Castelo. The Brazilian troops paid a heavy toll for this victory, but still there was more to come.

    On 5th of March, FEB entered Castelnuovo. During this period, the Offensive for Spring was being prepared by the High Staff of Gen. Crittenberger and the Brazilian High Command. This was a large scale operation (which would endure till the last days of the War), ranging from the Adriatic to the Tirrene, using every single Division of every Army taking part in the campaign. The actions would start with a frontal attack on the enemy lines, and the city of Montese was the target to the Brazilian troops, so as to remove what was left of the German artillery, still causing great damage to the Allies. The city was taken, but late at night, the Germans counter attacked and it took a high number of casualties to finish off with the fight, again, a tough and bloody page in the actions of FEB during the Italian Campaign.

    To be Continue...
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    frinik
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by frinik on Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:20 am

    Today on the German newspaper online Die Welt there was an article about an annual re-enacment of WW2 in Belarus. The article in German comes with a short video in which you can see a Stug and aT34-85 and genuine WW2 weapons and uniforms. In the same article there's also a short diaporama a bit lower.


    The article ( titled in rough translation : White Russia; near Minsk World War II has become a popular festival) itself is not overly informative .The re-enactment takes place by the Free Air Museum outside Minsk in the area where the Stalin line used to be. The re-enactment ,as you can see, attracts an enthusiastic crowd and is very realistic in that it includes grim aspects of the war including a German re-enactor who shoots himself rather than surrendering to the Red Army and another group of German re-enactors who are shot dead after surrendering. The re-enactment ends - as expected - with the victory of the Red Army. The article says that no less than 1,6 million Belarussians out of total pre war population of 9 million Belarussians died as a result of WW2.

    Here's the link:
    http://www.welt.de/reise/Fern/article148672982/Bei-Minsk-wird-der-Zweite-Weltkrieg-zum-Volksfest.html
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    33lima
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by 33lima on Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:08 am

    One of my favourite books on the italian campaign is 'Cassino - the Hollow Victory' by John Ellis. It gives due credit to the French, for there success at Monte Cassino and the general tenacity of their colonial troops. It is very gritty and has two of my favourite WW2 anecdotes.

    First story comes after the disastrous defeat of the US 36th Infantry Division at the Rapido. So low was US morale after the battle that an intelligence officer, in summing up the enemy's options, stated these to be 'The Germans could withdraw; or they could hold their present positions; or they could occupy our positions.'

    Another anecdote was told by a young US officer who describes how he had custody of this big bad German officer prisoner, whom he was trying to 'take down a peg or two'. He said to the German, 'If you're so tough, if your army is so good, how come you're my prisoner?' The German sighed and said patiently 'Well it's like this. I was in charge of an 88mm battery, up on this hill. The Americans sent a tank, and we knocked it out. Then they sent another tank, and we knocked that out, too. In the end, we ran out of ammunition, but you didn't run out of tanks.'
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    frinik
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by frinik on Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:13 am

    Yeah the French always willing to fight to the last North African or African trooper. Half the French colonial troops were either killed or wounded in WW2. To express their gratitude the French killed 30 to 50 000 Algerians who were demonstrating in favour of their independence in various cities of that country in May 1945 .I guess the vaunted crusade for democracy and freedom was fine as long as it was limited to the shores of Europe......

    The French tried the same in Indochina using former Waffen SS and foreign legionnaires. Didn't end so well for them. The British too used plenty of colonial canon fodder in both world wars.
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    33lima
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by 33lima on Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:43 pm

    I can't and won't attempt speak for the French, whose generally Metropolitan French field officers suffered casualties as bad or worse than the colonial troops they led. But as for the British, the Royal British Legion Festival of Remembrance at the Royal Albert Hall on Sunday night and the Whitehall parade included as usual prominent contributions from Commonwealth and Gurkha contingents. These men I suspect would be insulted to be called 'colonial cannon fodder'.
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    frinik
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by frinik on Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:01 pm

    The Gurkhas are a particular case because they are volunteers ( although mercenaries or professional soldiers to use a modern term) but the Indian and African colonial troops which served their British masters were not and sustained heavy casualties. They were good enough to die for the United Kingdom but not good enough to have their independence or self rule
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    33lima
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by 33lima on Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:12 am

    As we all know, the Africans and Indians did get their independence and self-rule, some (eg India) very soon after the crisis of WW2 passed, Frinik. Anyway, as the OP requested, this is not the place for us to flaunt all our ant-fascist, anti-communist, anti-racist etc credentials, but to discuss WW2, so let's keep such politics out of this thread.

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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by Tanker on Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:03 pm

    33lima wrote:One of my favourite books on the italian campaign is 'Cassino - the Hollow Victory' by John Ellis. It gives due credit to the French, for there success at Monte Cassino and the general tenacity of their colonial troops. It is very gritty and has two of my favourite WW2 anecdotes.

    First story comes after the disastrous defeat of the US 36th Infantry Division at the Rapido. So low was US morale after the battle that an intelligence officer, in summing up the enemy's options, stated these to be 'The Germans could withdraw; or they could hold their present positions; or they could occupy our positions.'

    Another anecdote was told by a young US officer who describes how he had custody of this big bad German officer prisoner, whom he was trying to 'take down a peg or two'. He said to the German, 'If you're so tough, if your army is so good, how come you're my prisoner?' The German sighed and said patiently 'Well it's like this. I was in charge of an 88mm battery, up on this hill. The Americans sent a tank, and we knocked it out. Then they sent another tank, and we knocked that out, too. In the end, we ran out of ammunition, but you didn't run out of tanks.'

    Like most anecdotes, almost certainly apocryphal.
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by frinik on Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:03 am

    It's a forum Lima33 ;which by definition is a place where people express themselves and their opinions freely . The only self-censorship acceptable as far as I am concerned is to refrain from personal and ethnic slurs. Otherwise politics or ideologies are fair game.

    Anyway I have said my piece about colonial powers fighting and preaching " The crusade for freedom and democracy" but not practising its precepts so end of story......

    Re the above I agree with you Tanker it sounds like it was made up.
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    col.moore

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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by col.moore on Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:03 pm

    Here is another interesting thing that the Brazilian Army did during and After the WW2.

    Most of our Armored divisions ware equipped with the M-8 Greyhound, our soldiers like him so much that we decided to continue with the tank adding a few improvements that turns out in to the "Cascavel" (Rattlesnake), a name due his maneuverability matched with his firepower.

    Follow the link below and check the full story:

    http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/Brazil/EE-9_cascavel.php
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    Re: World War 2 History

    Post by frinik on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:38 am

    Interesting story. Thanks for sharing! Interesting tank site too. I remember seeing a Lybian Cascavel 6 years ago during my last trip to Tripoli. It was stationed near the int. airport. I looked at it and thought of the Puma( the WW2 version not the modern one).

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    Re: World War 2 History

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