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    Pz.IV gunsight

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    Txema
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:06 pm

    lockie wrote:
    New Pz. IV F2/H gunsight


    Old Pz. IV F2/H gunsight


    Hi Lockie and will73,

    First of all, thank you very much for the new gunsight !!

    Let me ask some questions:

    Why are the 7 central triangles much larger in the new gunsight than in the old gunsight?

    And why is the radius of the (imaginary) circle where the ranging numbers are written much smaller in the new gunsight than in the old gunsight?

    I think that if the 7 central triangles of the new gunsight were smaller, and the radius of the (imaginary) circle where the ranging numbers are written were larger, the new gunsight would look much better !!

    Lockie, will73, what do you think?

    Txema
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:12 pm

    will73,

    I think that the radius of the (imaginary) circle where the ranging numbers are written looks much better in your previous version of the gunsight:



    Lockie and everybody else... what do you think?


    Txema

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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:24 pm

    Or perhaps it would look better if an intermediate raidus is taken like in the implementation done by Graviteam (for their never published add-on for Steel Fury)?




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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Technopiper on Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:29 pm

    Problem with the larger circle is that the numbers are no longer visible once zoomed in. A gunner could roll his eyeballs to enlarge his peripheral vision, a gamer is stuck with what the game screen gives him.

    Txema
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:39 pm

    Hi will73 and Lockie,

    I have been testing the new TZF 5f gunsight using the Pz.IVH in the Firing Ground scenario (GMP 1.45), and I have noticed that the 7 central triangles used for finding the range to the target are not properly calibrated (they are too big!).

    Here you have a Panther tank (height = 3m) placed at a distance of 1000m. The central triangle has 4 mils, and therefore the height of the Panther should be 3/4 of the central triangle. As it can be seen the height of the tank is now around 2/4 of the central triangle... The size of the triangle needs to be reduced !



    Actually, the target distance predicted using this image would be = 3/2*1000 = 1500m, while the real distance is 1000m !

    Lockie, will73, do you agree with me?

    Txema
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    lockie
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by lockie on Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:48 pm

    Hi, Txema
    Thank u for the detailed report.
    Txema wrote:I have been testing the new TZF 5f gunsight using the Pz.IVH in the Firing Ground scenario (GMP 1.45), and I have noticed that the 7 central triangles used for finding the range to the target are not properly calibrated (they are too big!).
    U're right, at first glance, gunsight wasn't calibrated right, but will73 made the base of the central triangle equal to 8 mills Smile That's confusing.
    So, now gunsight subject to be changed. The base of triangle will be 4 mills. I didn't send to u gunsight from pz.IV F1, coz I think it has the same issues (big scale/triangles).
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    will73
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by will73 on Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:44 pm

    Поправлені приціли TZF-5F  для танків  Pz-IVF2, Pz-IVH.

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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:26 pm

    Hi will73,

    It looks very good. Looking forward to testing it !!

    Thank you cheers


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    lockie
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by lockie on Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:37 pm

    New gunsight for the Pz.IV/H was not calibrated properly for the HE scale. It works good up to the 1000 meters, then deviation becomes bigger. I.e. u've to set up the range scale at 1800 meters, where the actual distance is 1500 meters.
    1500 meters


    1000 meters


    EDIT 22.08.2015
    Now shells adjusted properly(decreased gravity from 5.0m/c to 3.5m/c), but seems to me it got enormous power!
    HE shell caused a severe damages at the distance 1500 meters. I don't thinks it should be like this. Though, may be it's realistic.


    As we can see changing ONE gunsight reticle leads to the many questions and issues. That's why I don't want to change anything, which already works.

    For any case, I've checked out the 3D model of the Pz.IV/F1 and as we may see the model is full of bugs - "open edges"(green lines). No wonder that HE caused such severe damage.

    Funy, but this model has 8 years old and there were almost no complains abt. bad armor of the tank. Smile
    I'm pretty sure that all default models: T-34/76, KV-1, T-60, Pz.III J, STUG III and all other are full of "open edges" and a very vulnerable to any HE shot.

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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:36 am

    Hi Lockie !

    The damage caused by a HE shell does not depend on the distance. It is the same at 100 meters and at 1500 meters (if it hits the target !)
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by frinik on Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:22 am

    Txema are you talking in terms of experience (what you've noticed when using the HE shells) or simply in terms of fact?

    Normally, the AP and HE shells should cause much less damage at 1500 metres especially since the short L24 kwk40 75mm had a low muzzle velocity.

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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Tanker on Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:17 pm

    frinik, why would the damage caused by an HE shell vary with velocity? It is not a kinetic round like a solid core AP shell. A HEAT round is as equally effective at 600m as it is at 1500m. I would think the same would be true of an HE shell. Both rounds depend on their explosive energy, not their kinetic energy.
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by frinik on Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:20 am

    Because HE shells also have penetrative capacity. I wasn' t talking about the explosive effect only the penetrating one. I'll post the tables when I find them.

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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Tanker on Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:10 am

    I'm pretty sure that hollow charges (what is known as HEAT or high explosive anti tank rounds) are independent of range for penetration. I'm not sure why HE would be different.
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    lockie
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by lockie on Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:36 am

    Do somebody has a reticle TZF 5f(with documented confirmation)? I'd prefer to see it from "Manual Pz.IV".

    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/photos-papers-propaganda-third-reich/panzer-iv-tiger-manuals-521019/

    PS
    At this moment Pz.IV/F1 and Pz.III/N has this gunsight reticle. It works and there is no need to change it.

    Txema
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:51 pm

    frinik wrote:Txema are you talking in terms of experience (what you've noticed when using the HE shells) or simply in terms of fact?

    Normally, the AP and HE shells should cause much less damage at 1500 metres especially since the short L24 kwk40 75mm had a low muzzle velocity.

    I am speaking in terms of theory, not in terms of experience. But I am sure that I have read several times that the penetration capability of HEAT shells does not depend on the distance. The same should happen for the HE shells... Anyway, if you find evidences about the contrary I would love to read them, of course.

    Txema

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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:57 pm

    Lockie wrote:EDIT 22.08.2015
    Now HE shells adjusted properly(decreased gravity from 5.0m/c to 3.5m/c), but seems to me it got enormous power!

    Hi Lockie !

    One of the problems of this approach is that other vehicles that use the same gun and shells will have their gunsight reticles not properly calibrated for HE shells now... (like the Stug IIIG, for example).

    Moreover, with these new parameters, the AP and HE shells need approximately the same gun elevation to hit the targets. That is odd because the AP shell has a velocity of 740(790) m/s while the HE shell has 550(580) m/s. Since the velocity of the AP is much higher than the velocity of the HE, the AP shell should have a much flatter trajectory and require less gun elevation, while the HE should require more gun elevation to hit the same target... In my opinion the range scale for the HE shell on the gunsight TZF 5f should be changed to reflect this fact, while the parameters of the HE shell itself should remain as in the previous versions to give it a trajectory less flat than the trajectory of the AP shell.

    Txema
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:26 pm

    Hi again !

    As you have posted previously, the real operation of these gunsights was the following:

    Pz.IV/G (and also Pz.IVF2/H)


    Since it is not possible to implement (in Steel Fury) the movement of the 7 central triangles back to the center of the gunsight while we go from the PzGr39 scale, to the SprGr34 scale, we could do it in "two gunsights". The first gunsight will have the PzGr39 scale in the upper part, and the SprGr34 scale in the lower part, and it should be used to range the PzGr39 (and PzGr40) shells. The second gunsight will have the SprGr34 scale in the upper part, and the PzGr39 scale in the lower part, and it should be used to range the SprGr34 (and MG34) shells. For the player both gunsights would be the same gunsight, of course, but by pressing "PageUP" and "PageDown" he will switch between using the ranging scale for PzGr39 and the ranging scale for the SprGr34.

    One important advantage of this implementation is that the rate of vertical movement for the 7 central triangles can be calibrated independently for the PzGr39 scale and for the SprGr34 scale, to take into account the very different muzzle velocity of both shells. Just as they did in the real german gunsights!

    Other important advantage of this implementation is that it is very close to the real operation of the real german gunsights!

    What do you think? For me this would be an almost perfect solution !

    Txema
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    lockie
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by lockie on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:34 pm

    Txema wrote:One of the problems of this approach is that other vehicles that use the same gun and shells will have their gunsight reticles not properly calibrated for HE shells now... (like the Stug IIIG, for example).
    Stug IIIG has his personal shells:
    Code:
    PZGR39_75G, 20, 0, 0;
    GR38HLB_75G, 20, 0, 2;
    SPRGR38_75G, 50, 0, 1;

    Txema wrote:In my opinion the range scale for the HE shell on the gunsight TZF 5f should be changed to reflect this fact, while the parameters of the HE shell itself should remain as in the previous versions to give it a trajectory less flat than the trajectory of the AP shell.
    Yes, u're right. BUT(!) There is one problem - we're not sure that already presented tzf 5f has a true reticle. That's why will73 had to decrease gravity for HE shell. Now I think I've found a real reticle/graticule. (I'll upload image later, coz need confirmation).


    Txema wrote:
    As you have posted previously, the real operation of these gunsights was the following:
    Now I'm not sure it is an original reticle. It is just video from the game. There is no documented confirmation.


    Last edited by lockie on Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:47 am; edited 1 time in total

    Txema
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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:50 pm

    Hi Lockie!

    Please, post the reticle. I would love to see it, even if it is not confirmed... Smile

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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:24 pm

    Very interesting post describing the operation of the TZF german gunsights by an expert. He speaks about the operation of a real gunsight owned by a collector !

    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4788063&postcount=7

    It seems identical to what it can be seen in the youtube video !

    Pz.IV/G (and also Pz.IVF2/H)

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    Re: Pz.IV gunsight

    Post by Txema on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:53 pm

    And here you have a post in the Panzer Elite Development Group (PEDG) forums with other german TZF gunsights:

    http://pedg.yuku.com/topic/2112/Strichplatten-TZF-5-E

    The last gunsight in the thread is the TZF5f. I am convinced that it is the correct TZF 5f gunsight. The post is by Allen Barber (Brit44 Aldo), a legend in the development of Panzer Elite !! I know that he researched the gunsight topic thoroughly. As I say, that is the TZF 5f gunsight. The problem to calibrate the gunsight is that when using the PzGr39 scale the 7 central triangles move down at a different rate (slower) than when using the SprGr34 scale. When using the SprGr34 scale, the 7 central triangles move down at a faster rate, to make the gunner use a larger elevation for the gun as I have explained in my previous post.

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