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    Tiger II frontal armor kills

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    KurtTank
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    Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by KurtTank on Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:57 pm

    Having an issue (?) with what I think are unrealistic T-34/85 kill shots on the Tiger II. Here is the armor I tweaked for Tiger II:

    //òîëùèíà áðîíè, ìì (ïðè óðîâíå 100)
    armor_thick = 100;
    //áðîíÿ äëÿ ÈÈ
    arm_fwd = 100;
    arm_side = 75;
    arm_back = 80;
    arm_up = 40;

    //âèäèìîñòü
    vis_factor = 3;

    //êàðòà áðîíèðîâàíèÿ
    armor_map = armor_maps\ktiger_armor.tga;
    //êà÷åñòâî áðîíèðîâàíèÿ
    armor_qual = 1.5;
    //õðóïêîñòü áðîíè
    armor_frail = 0.2;
    //êîýôôèöèýíò ñíàðÿäîñòîéêîñòè
    armor_str = 2250;

    And here are screen shots showing what I think are (next to) impossible penetrations of frontal armor of the Tiger II from distances between 800-1100m (especially the hit on the gun mantlet!):





    A hit on the mantlet?

    Is the hit in the seam, and is that likely? It appears to be right above it, so full armor and slope.

    I did a lot of reading on the Graviteam forum to see if the armor was set too high. Threads and debates in 2011 when this was first getting going seem to indicate some issues with fairness to actual wartime experiences, i.e., there were very few, if any, penetrations of Tiger II armor on the front glacis. What was the final result of all that debate? Are the values and armor maps correct, and why is it happening here? Maybe I messed up the values too high?
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    lockie
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by lockie on Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:10 pm

    Welcome to the club of modding! Setting of the armor strength is a very interesting and unlimited process!
    KurtTank wrote:Having an issue (?) with what I think are unrealistic T-34/85 kill shots on the Tiger II. Here is the armor I tweaked for Tiger II:
    armor_qual = 1.5;
    armor_frail = 0.2;
    armor_str = 2250;
    WOW! U're greatly improved armor parameters of the KT!


    There is no penetration, coz vector of AP shell is dimmish and not bright. All damages were caused by shell fragments.
    U may change one parameter.
    1. Open with Notepad file:
    ...data\k42\loc_rus\levels\levels\tech_cfg\ktiger.engcfg
    2. find entry armor_frail=0.3; and change it on
    armor_frail=0.001;
    3. save

    And here are screen shots showing what I think are (next to) impossible penetrations of frontal armor of the Tiger II from distances between 800-1100m (especially the hit on the gun mantlet!):
    Agree with a distance. For APC(undecaliber) shell it's impossible to damage target more than 500-600meters, coz shell was light and lost speed in a very quick manner. As for mantlet I think it looks realistic(except distance), coz APC was desined to hit mantlet, engine, gun without explosions.
    There is a trick. The APC shell of the T-34/85 has explosiveness, which wasn't in real. But it was made deliberately to stop KT and improve shell armor penetrating.
    U may re-adjust shell and it'll become almost completely unuseful as it was before. Also u may decrease hit distance.
    ...data\k42\loc_rus\levels\levels\common\common_res.engcfg
    entry:
    BR365P,0x01,%SHELL_APSC%,C53,1050,51.6,0.56,0.4,40,1,1,0,5,0.02,0.2,6,0.8,0.8,0.1,0,1,1,1,expl_gndl*,expl_techl*,expl_buildl*,expl_water*,expl_human*,fly1,0,1500,1,txt_shell_br365p,apsc_expl_pat,rico_pat,piece_pat,0,1,1,1,1,0xffff4040,0,1,3,SHELL_BR365P,SHELLC_C53;
    on
    BR365P,0x01,%SHELL_APSC%,C53,1050,51.6,0.56,0.4,40,1,1,0,5,0.0,0.2,6,0.8,0.8,0.1,0,1,1,1,expl_gndl*,expl_techl*,expl_buildl*,expl_water*,expl_human*,fly1,0,600,1,txt_shell_br365p,apsc_expl_pat,rico_pat,piece_pat,0,1,1,1,1,0xffff4040,0,1,3,SHELL_BR365P,SHELLC_C53;



    There is no penetration.


    A hit on the mantlet?
    As my point it looks realistic, except distance. It should be ~500m Anyway, u may fix it. Though, may be 3D model has errors.


    Is the hit in the seam, and is that likely? It appears to be right above it, so full armor and slope.
    This is because of the additional explosiveness of the APC shell. This is for balance to stop KT. All adjustments were made during missions testing. But u may fix them. Of course, it'll effect some missions, but I don't think too much. Mission with KT are no more than ~10.

    there were very few, if any, penetrations of Tiger II armor on the front glacis.
    I'm pretty sure u're right. Well, u can make a mode: realistic armor (or smth.) where u'll re-adjust parameters of the shell and armor. That's a very wide a big way for modding. Because there are many opinions how armor should work Smile

    What was the final result of all that debate?
    The final result: SF is a game. It does all parameters should corresponds to the missions playability. But of course, this conception could be changed with a new mod.

    Are the values and armor maps correct?
    I may tell u that this question depends on what u'd like to see:
    1. play the mission and have a fun
    2. make investigation with detailed calculation, which armor correspond to the correct parameters
    SF is good for both methods.
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    KurtTank
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by KurtTank on Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:10 am

    lockie wrote:Welcome to the club of modding! Setting of the armor strength is a very interesting and unlimited process!
    Yes, I enjoy a challenge (that I can solve  Very Happy )
    KurtTank wrote:Having an issue (?) with what I think are unrealistic T-34/85 kill shots on the Tiger II. Here is the armor I tweaked for Tiger II:
    armor_qual = 1.5;
    armor_frail = 0.2;
    armor_str = 2250;
    lockie wrote:WOW! U're greatly improved armor parameters of the KT!

    Yes, I was experimenting because I was getting taken out at what I thought was unrealistic shots and distance. Now I have a better idea of what was happening.

    lockie wrote:
    There is no penetration, coz vector of AP shell is dimmish and not bright. All damages were caused by shell fragments.
    U may change one parameter.
    1. Open with Notepad file:
    ...data\k42\loc_rus\levels\levels\tech_cfg\ktiger.engcfg
    2. find entry armor_frail=0.3; and change it on
    armor_frail=0.001;
    3. save

    I see now. Thanks. But I thought a frail factor of 0.2 would nearly eliminate the problem. Guess not.

    And here are screen shots showing what I think are (next to) impossible penetrations of frontal armor of the Tiger II from distances between 800-1100m (especially the hit on the gun mantlet!):
    lockie wrote:Agree with a distance. For APC(undecaliber) shell it's impossible to damage target more than 500-600meters, coz shell was light and lost speed in a very quick manner. As for mantlet I think it looks realistic(except distance), coz APC was desined to hit mantlet, engine, gun without explosions.
    There is a trick. The APC shell of the T-34/85 has explosiveness, which wasn't in real. But it was made deliberately to stop KT and improve shell armor penetrating.
    U may re-adjust shell and it'll become almost completely unuseful as it was before. Also u may decrease hit distance.
    ...data\k42\loc_rus\levels\levels\common\common_res.engcfg
    entry:
    BR365P,0x01,%SHELL_APSC%,C53,1050,51.6,0.56,0.4,40,1,1,0,5,0.02,0.2,6,0.8,0.8,0.1,0,1,1,1,expl_gndl*,expl_techl*,expl_buildl*,expl_water*,expl_human*,fly1,0,1500,1,txt_shell_br365p,apsc_expl_pat,rico_pat,piece_pat,0,1,1,1,1,0xffff4040,0,1,3,SHELL_BR365P,SHELLC_C53;
    on
    BR365P,0x01,%SHELL_APSC%,C53,1050,51.6,0.56,0.4,40,1,1,0,5,0.0,0.2,6,0.8,0.8,0.1,0,1,1,1,expl_gndl*,expl_techl*,expl_buildl*,expl_water*,expl_human*,fly1,0,600,1,txt_shell_br365p,apsc_expl_pat,rico_pat,piece_pat,0,1,1,1,1,0xffff4040,0,1,3,SHELL_BR365P,SHELLC_C53;

    Thanks, more tweaking. Does it ever end?  Laughing



    lockie wrote:There is no penetration.

    I see.


    A hit on the mantlet?
    lockie wrote:As my point it looks realistic, except distance. It should be ~500m Anyway, u may fix it. Though, may be 3D model has errors.

    Thanks.


    Is the hit in the seam, and is that likely? It appears to be right above it, so full armor and slope.
    lockie wrote:This is because of the additional explosiveness of the APC shell. This is for balance to stop KT. All adjustments were made during missions testing. But u may fix them. Of course, it'll effect some missions, but I don't think too much. Mission with KT are no more than ~10.

    For balance? If the Tiger II was that difficult to stop (and it mostly stopped itself with numerous operational issues), then why was the game changed to make it more "balanced"? I thought most everyone wanted realism.

    there were very few, if any, penetrations of Tiger II armor on the front glacis.
    lockie wrote:I'm pretty sure u're right. Well, u can make a mode: realistic armor (or smth.) where u'll re-adjust parameters of the shell and armor. That's a very wide a big way for modding. Because there are many opinions how armor should work Smile

    I noticed the debate in 2011 was pretty extensive, and I've seen debates on other game forums regarding the same topic. Oh well, Ill adjust it my way.

    What was the final result of all that debate?
    lockie wrote:The final result: SF is a game. It does all parameters should corresponds to the missions playability. But of course, this conception could be changed with a new mod.

    True. Smile

    Are the values and armor maps correct?
    lockie wrote:I may tell u that this question depends on what u'd like to see:
    1. play the mission and have a fun
    2. make investigation with detailed calculation, which armor correspond to the correct parameters
    SF is good for both methods.

    Great! Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate your tutoring!
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    KurtTank
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    ????????

    Post by KurtTank on Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:21 am

    Tonight it gets more interesting. Look at these screenshots of a German bullet killing a Tiger II:

    Only one hit and killed by own half track!

    No other hits on the tank, and it's burning! Maybe the crew set it on fire before bailing out from a bullet hit. sunny
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by lockie on Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:08 am

    KurtTank wrote:
    For balance? If the Tiger II was that difficult to stop (and it mostly stopped itself with numerous operational issues), then why was the game changed to make it more "balanced"? I thought most everyone wanted realism.
    KT in game is unstopable units, except some tricks with the other shells. SF can't overheat/breake engine to stop AI. Anyway, question with balance subject to discussion. For the German side invulnerable KT is good, but for the Soviet it is not good.

    KurtTank wrote:

    Only one hit and killed by own half track!
    No other hits on the tank, and it's burning! Maybe the crew set it on fire before bailing out from a bullet hit. sunny
    I think that 3D model of KT has errors, coz one bullet must not damage KT. As I remember there are three KT:
    1. red camo
    2. green camo (as on the mentioned picture)
    3. red camo with cockpit
    Could u check out all of them on the special polygon? There is for the German mission: Firing Ground (Stug III G), GMP1.x, No14.
    Just replace default units with (trophy T-34 vs KT) and shoot at KT with HE shells and MG and see what happens.
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by KurtTank on Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:27 am


    Special polygon? Not sure what that means, armor map? I have no knowledge to look at those....I barely understand mission editing, lol! I'll look at that mission with what you mentioned.
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by lockie on Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:30 am

    This mission has a highways. It's a very handy to test armor penetration, check out gunsight.
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by KurtTank on Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:25 pm

    lockie wrote:This mission has a highways. It's a very handy to test armor penetration, check out gunsight.
    Okay, thanks.
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by KurtTank on Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:15 am

    Donken wrote:This is something i will work on in the future, i am planning on a realistic optional mod. But that is far in the future. For now you need to adjust everything yourself. And the latest and most buggfree King Tiger model is the one with interior. It still have problems but far less then the other two =)
    Thanks, I stopped using that one once I discovered the full company of five Tiger II's. I like that they follow my lead. I don't think there is a way for other platoons to "Do as I do", right?
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by col.moore on Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:59 pm

    Interesting thing to mention (the armor strenght), I was playing the Villers-Bocage v2 yesterday, and I was doing well, except that I had to fire 6, 7 times (Each tank) in the Stuart's (all direct hits) to neutralize the tank! i was like WTF the stuart is stronger than the Cromwell?? makes no sense!

    This is without mention that, I was playing another mission (I will check the name when I get at home) I was in a Panther and the T-34's hit me in the track an displaced my turret... another WTF moment! AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

    It was funny after all.... tongue
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by kapulA on Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:12 pm

    Yeah, come to think of it, maybe the Stuart's armor ought to be checked; I recall it as being rather sturdy against even the Tiger's 88.. scratch
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by frinik on Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:42 am

    I did check the tech_cfg files and I found that the M3 Stuart armour_strength value is set at 2100!!! Shocked I also checked the M3 Grant and it's set at 2050...For the M3 Lee it's 2030.Set them all back to 2000 and your problems with them should be a thing of the past.

    Kurt, about the strength of the KT don 't make an obsession of it. Despite it's fearsome reputation it was flawed because it came out at a time German industry was being bombed round the clock, the quality of workmanship and of the steel had declined because of shortages of skilled labour, the use of slave labour and the lack of some alloys designed to make high quality steel. Rather than boost the KT 's armour to highly unrealistic values I would recommend ,lowering th penetration values of the T34/85 mm shell which may be set too high and following Lockie's advice and remove the explosive part of the AP shells in the common res file which is giving it an artificial boost.

    Also beware that increasing the value of the frontal armour of the KT does not necessarily make it stronger .Lockie can explain what these values serve in fact.

    With the settings I use my KT has become strong and tough without being impervious to shots below 800 metres from 76 and 85 mm shells and over than to 100 and 12mm shells which will kill me all the way to 1800 metres as per accurate historical data.
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    Re: Tiger II frontal armor kills

    Post by lockie on Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:47 am

    frinik wrote:I did check the tech_cfg files and I found that the M3  Stuart armour_strength value is set at 2100!!! Shocked  
    It was made for the balance. Same was with default BT-5. It has armor strength 2200! The same has BT-7 Smile
    It is coefficient of the hardening. Also Stuart has inner cockipt, which prevents members crew from spalling (same with Cromvell, M8). I may ask will73 to remove this inner cockpit or disable it.
    It's possible to decrease armour_strength value to "80", to provide balance.
    M3 and M5 had armour_strength=2100 from the very begining. These tanks were tested under personal mission, so far no complains Smile
    But I see that armour_strength=2080 would be good.

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