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    Questions Concerning The Use Of Flags By Armor/Tank Units.

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    woofiedog
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    Questions Concerning The Use Of Flags By Armor/Tank Units.

    Post by woofiedog on Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:06 pm

    Was reading an article about the Ferdinand's and Soviet gunner's had reported that the command "Ferdinands" were marked by special flags on the antennas.

    My questions are...  did the German tankers use flags/pennants/guidons tied on their antennas or attached in some other fashion to their vehicles, regularly during combat in WWII?  And was it used just for unit battlefield recognition or was it used in another manner and used mainly because of the lack of radios?

    According to the reports of Russian gunners in this day the Germans for the first time used a new martial construction of the "in-line" with the ACS "Ferdinand" in the head of the group. The battalion was acting in self-propelled languid 2 lanes. In the first tier, two companies of the battalion moved to the interval between the cars in the 100 meters, in the 2nd tier was the third company with an interval of between 120-150 meters in ACS. Company commanders were at the heart of battle formations, their commander "Ferdinand" were marked by special flags on the antennas.

    http://survincity.com/2011/07/german-tank-destroyer-of-the-war-part-6-ferdinand/

    Thank's for any help from one of you who might know more about this subject. Smile
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    lockie
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    Re: Questions Concerning The Use Of Flags By Armor/Tank Units.

    Post by lockie on Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:49 pm

    woofiedog wrote:Was reading an article about the Ferdinand's and Soviet gunner's had reported that the command "Ferdinands" were marked by special flags on the antennas.
    Does it look like this? Shocked


    As we know German tank divisions suffered from the lack of fuel. That's why on some tanks were installed sail to use alternative energy - wind.
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    woofiedog
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    Re: Questions Concerning The Use Of Flags By Armor/Tank Units.

    Post by woofiedog on Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:50 am

    Yes... of course! LoL Wink

    As we know German tank divisions suffered from the lack of fuel.

    A photo of the German war machine finding another fuel source for their thirsty Tiger's.

    Quote...   German tankers siphoning fuel from a knocked-out M4A4 sherman "Firefly"

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    lockie
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    Re: Questions Concerning The Use Of Flags By Armor/Tank Units.

    Post by lockie on Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:03 am

    woofiedog wrote:
    German tankers siphoning fuel from a knocked-out M4A4 sherman "Firefly"
    Actually, Sherman wasn't knocked-out. Tank's crew members came into the nearest beer-pab. At the end of WW2 Germany sent regularly a huge numbers of saboteur groups to siphoning fuel from the enemy tanks.
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    woofiedog
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    Re: Questions Concerning The Use Of Flags By Armor/Tank Units.

    Post by woofiedog on Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:28 am

    I found the answers to my questions.

    Panzer IV communication system.  From US Intelligence Bulletin December 1942

    http://www.la6nca.net/doc/panzercom.pdf

    The tank commander, who is an officer or senior noncom, is responsible for the vehicle
    and the crew. He indicates targets to the gunner, gives fire orders, and observes the
    fall of shots.
    He keeps a constant lookout for the enemy, observes the zone for which he is
    responsible, and watches for any orders from the commander's vehicle. In action, he
    gives his orders to the driver and radio operator by intercommunication telephone, and
    to the gunner and loader by touch signals or through a speaking tube.  
    He receives orders by radio or flag, and reports to his commander by radio, signal
    pistol, or flag.

    The signal flags are normally carried in holders on the left of the driver's seat. When
    the cupola is open, flag signals are given by the tank commander; when it is closed,
    the loader raises the circular flap in the left of the turret roof and signals with the
    appropriate flag through the port thus opened. Flag signals are given in accordance
    with a definite code, the meaning of any signal depending on the color of the flag used
    and whether the flag is held still or moved in a particular way.


    For special operations-for example, long-range
    reconnaissance patrols-tanks can be netted by a
    frequency other than the company frequency. However,
    this 'eutails altering the sets. Alternatively,
    tanks can be given two sets tuned to two frequencies,
    but this is seldom done except in the case of the
    company headquarters tank, where it is the normal
    procedure. All priority and battle messages are
    passed in the clear, but important tactical terms (such
    as "attack," "outflank," "assemble") have code
    names (such as "dance," "sing," and so on). Each
    tank carries a list of these code names.


    Crew and Communications of German Mark IV Tank

    http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/crew-communications.html

    German WWII tactical signs

    1943-1945

    http://www.schwimmwagen.ch/english/tacticalSigns_E.html

    The Secret School of War: The Soviet-German Tank Academy at Kama

    By late 1930, there were nine academic instructors at
    Kama. The “Lehrgangsleiter” taught classes on tactics, supervised war games and
    oversaw the curriculum.  Under him were three instructors, specializing in fire control,
    machine guns and radio communications, respectively.  Also employed at the school
    was a team of radio technicians, who worked on engineering radios that could function in
    the difficult conditions of a moving tank.

    The technical problem was more complex than it would appear at first. Radios in
    the 1910s were made with crystals that required relative stability. Putting a standard
    commercial radio in a tank would have resulted in these crystals breaking, thus rendering
    the unit ineffective.

    In 1929, at Kama, German engineers discovered a way to mount
    relatively small two way radios into each tank, with enormous repercussions.


    https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=osu1338500708&disposition=inline

    German Vehicle Recognition Drapes (World War II)

    http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de%5Egvrd.html


    Last edited by woofiedog on Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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    woofiedog
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    Re: Questions Concerning The Use Of Flags By Armor/Tank Units.

    Post by woofiedog on Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:54 am

    Germany sent regularly a huge numbers of saboteur groups to siphoning fuel from the enemy

    I read in a book of the last Panzer Battles, that German Panzer units were sending patrols out looking for knocked out vehicles or vehicles to siphoning fuel from.
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    33lima
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    Re: Questions Concerning The Use Of Flags By Armor/Tank Units.

    Post by 33lima on Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:01 pm

    British armour in the Western Desert often used aerial pennants, but I don't think the Germns did, apart from the occasional exception (like this one - from the derset where such things may have been rather more useful - http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/panzer-2/panzer-ii-tank-of-the-afrika-korps/. ) Their sustem of tactical numbers identified tanks, including unit command tanks, rather more effectively than little pennants would have done.

    As for flag signals, IIRC early Panzer IVs had a little 'inverted ice cream cone' port in their turret tops from which flag signals could be given but the fitting was later deleted. Except perhaps during route marches or when forming up, I can't see tanks equpiied with reliable radio sets bothering with flag signals during a battle. Even if the crews hadn't by then found something more useful do with their flags, like maybe firewood Smile
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    woofiedog
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    Re: Questions Concerning The Use Of Flags By Armor/Tank Units.

    Post by woofiedog on Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:55 pm

    33lima...
    Except perhaps during route marches or when forming up, I can't see tanks equpiied with reliable radio sets bothering with flag signals during a battle. Even if the crews hadn't by then found something more useful do with their flags, like maybe firewood wrote:

    I can not agree with that statement more completely! LoL Laughing

    Here you are in a cramped, buttoned up tank that is either frying hot or freezing cold and in a fight for your very life.  And all the while you really can not see out of your machine no matter what tank, whether Allied or German your buttoned up in.

    And now your suppose to be waving around these colored flags, so that the only ones to really see these flags your waving around are the enemy, who just happen to be waiting for you to give away your concealed position, so they can hand you a anti tank round sandwich. Which you can skip the mayonnaise.  

    Yet, at the same time I have read in more than one source, that the Soviet tankers were doing this flag waving for a good part of the war.   Shocked

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