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    Wörghern

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    Holidays !

    Post by Wörghern on Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:45 pm

    YES ! I'm leaving tonight on holiday and I'll see you by the end of August! I wish you all a great holiday and see you soon! Wink  sunny 

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    frinik
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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by frinik on Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:04 am

    Bonnes vacances Woerghern!Profites-en bien!

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    lockie
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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by lockie on Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:04 am

    Happy holidays!
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    Wörghern

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Wörghern on Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:57 am

    Thank you my friends,


    Holydays was how I expected for ! GR10 in Ariège, Farniente in Gironde, beach, sun and sea at the Porge, local products and so on !


    Now, time to go back to work....sigh...

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Tanker on Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:43 pm

    Wörghern wrote:Thank you my friends,


    Holydays was how I expected for ! GR10 in Ariège, Farniente in Gironde, beach, sun and sea at the Porge, local products and so on !


    Now, time to go back to work....sigh...

    Don't you only work 30 hours per week and have 2 months vacation in France? Or is that just a vicious rumor? Wink
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    Wörghern

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Wörghern on Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:48 pm

    I'll like it ! Smile)

    But, yes, this is a funny rumor; the french law says 35 hours per week and five weeks by year Wink
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    frinik
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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by frinik on Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:53 am

    Compare that to what the poor Yanks have and yet they wonder? It it the fact that they drink red wine that gives the French a lower rate of heart disease????? When you think the pursuit of happiness is enshrined in the US Constitution and yet they still haven't found it, toiling 45 hours a week for a meager 2 weeks holidays when they're allowed to take them.... Shocked

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Tanker on Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:12 pm

    It's true frinik, Americans tend to work too much and diet and life style cause a lot of health problems. But I think that a system like the French have will be unsustainable in the face of global competition. Japan, for example, has aged and the new generation does not want to work like their parents and grandparents did. The same is happening in South Korea However, there is always a new, hungry, population somewhere (probably Africa next) in the developing world that is willing to work 80 hours a week for little pay and no benefits. Capital, being mobile, will gravitate to that point and so will jobs.

    PS The French diet and the difference in heart disease between the US and France should have sunk the theory that a high fat diet was causing heart disease years ago.
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    Wörghern

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Wörghern on Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:07 pm

    Tanker wrote:It's true frinik, Americans tend to work too much and diet and life style cause a lot of health problems.  But I think that a system like the French have will be unsustainable in the face of global competition.  Japan, for example, has aged and the new generation does not want to work like their parents and grandparents did.  The same is happening in South Korea  However, there is always a new, hungry, population somewhere (probably Africa next) in the developing world that is willing to work 80 hours a week for little pay and no benefits.  Capital, being mobile, will gravitate to that point and so will jobs.

    PS The French diet and the difference in heart disease between the US and France should have sunk the theory that a high fat diet was causing heart disease years ago.



    Personally, I prefer to live in France as United states. We have great food, rich and varied, good wine, champagne, a beautiful country, a culture and a secular history. Today, France is changing. We, the younger generation take into account the transience of our world; we consume less and seek the essential. If every country in the world behaved like the United States, it would take at least four planet earth to sustain its needs. The Americans did just that awareness of themselves and live in an almost constant state of war. The capitalism "made in usa" is not a long-term guarantee. The planet's resources are not inexhaustible and yet 35% of the American population is obese. Moreover, when the oil runs out, guess who will suffer most betweens USA and France? Not sure that you have considered all aspects of a healthy and sustainable nation at the dawn of the 21st century...Capitalism by any means necessary ? Are you serious ? The United States has become the exact opposite of what they claim to be; USA is a hungry monster, insatiable and ruthless and contribute to the impoverishment of the Third World.
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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by lockie on Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:28 pm

    Wörghern wrote:USA is a hungry monster, insatiable and ruthless and contribute to the impoverishment of the Third World.
    I think, that's a bit exaggerated. USA is a stronghold place of democracy. Where the country is for the people. All my friends/comrades has a very different opinions abt USA, BUT all of them don't want to get back to the native area. All of them wants to live in USA. I've comrade, he lives in USA more than 20 years. he doesn't has right of citizen, he can't vote, coz he didn't pass exam to know language and history. But he is happy, coz he has a job and doesn't care abt anything.
    As for Europe. I visited many counties, i.e. i lived in France during one month. And I may say sincerely, it's beauty town and country, but it's completely strange for me. Same with Switzerland, Poland, Germany, Croatia, Czech, Holland.
    Well, Ukraine now is trying to be in Europe, but it won't be a very easy walking. I think the american life way is more closer to us than european. Of course, it's only my opinion.


    Last edited by lockie on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by frinik on Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:45 pm

    As somebody who know and lived in both countries  I agree with Lockie that Woerghern's opinion is way too black and white. It's true the American way of life is unsustainable in the medium and long term... Also the American Dream has taken a turn for the worse in the last 30 years with large tracts of the population getting poorer, while other have grown filthy rich and inequalities worthy of the Third World prevail. But I personally love American culture( yes Dear Europeans there is a rich culture in the USA. As a European myself I attest to that! American culture is not millennia or centuries old but it's vibrant nevertheless and certainly more refreshing than some of the cultures I have encountered in the Europe of my birth and my youth. Sure American society is violent and gun-loving but have we forgotten the centuries of horror  that we Europeans perpetrated on each other and others in the name of religion or ideology? It's not the US which invented Gulags, the Inquisition, the extermination camps, carpet bombing, chemical warfare, enslavement of whole populations etc...So before we start feeling self righteous and full of the smug anti Americanism that prevails amongst the left-wing idiots who have the pretension of being cultured but are just full of their own shallow elves let's remember Europe's dirty past...

    As to where I would live; I feel equally happy or at home in California or in Switzerland. I just don't compare because every country or continent has its charms. As for France it's on a slippery slope to irrelevance .The French will have to face reality for a change and see that their life style - like the American Way of life but for different reasons - is also unsustainable as Tanker rightly pointed out.

    In the end if I were rich I would prefer to live in the States because it's a society made for the rich. If I were poor I 'd rather live in Europe because at least there's more social solidarity and social support. Europe is made for the common man.

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Tanker on Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:05 pm

    Whoa there Worghern, is it possible that you have misread my post? I don't believe I criticised France or it's way of life.

    I merely pointed out that in a global world economy a 35 hour work week and 5 weeks vacation, may eventually be non competitive.

    And I agreed with frinik that France has a lower incidence of heart disease and obesity because of life style and diet. The US could learn a lot from France about that and how to enjoy life.

    I don't know why you should answer in the way you did.

    BTW, since you brought up the planet and countries effect upon it, have you considered the effect on the environment of disposing of nuclear waste from electric power plants? France produces 75% of it's electricity from nuclear power.

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Tanker on Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:24 pm

    frinik wrote:

    In the end if I were rich I would prefer to live in the States because it's a society made for the rich. If I were poor I 'd rather live in Europe because at least there's more social solidarity and social support. Europe is made for the common man.

    Interesting discussion.  I think that the rising prosperity of the middle class compared to the concentration of wealth in fewer hands in the US has been an anomaly, historically speaking, since WW2.  I think that trend is reversing now.  The normal progression is a greater concentration of wealth when an economy moves from simple to complex.  I'm not happy with that trend because I think it brings social instability.  A vibrant middle class is vital, in my opinion.  However, through pension funds and the stock market, a higher percentage of Americans are now "capitalists" than ever before in history and therefore profit from business success outside of a salary.

    The social systems that you refer to in Europe are wonderful, in theory.  A strong economy, a young workforce with relatively full employment is necessary to generate the taxes to sustain that.  Even now Scandanavian countries are seeing the effects of immigrants, that can't contribute taxes and work, on the generous social systems.  I think there is also a stifling effect on innovation and job creation by bureaucracy and over legislation in parts of Europe.

    I just fear that social systems that provide cradle to grave care will have a difficult time sustaining themselves if they have a shrinking, aging workforce and less incentive for job creation.


    Last edited by Tanker on Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Tanker on Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:38 pm

    Donken wrote:Fulltime job in Sweden is 40h/week and also 5 week vacation each year =) Looks like the winning combo ^^

    I'd say that the Swedish Bikini Team sealed the deal but they were not Swedes.  False advertising.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Bikini_Team
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    Wörghern

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Wörghern on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:05 pm

    Democracy is an exaggerated term when speaking of the united states. How can we say that a nation is democratic when it has the largest powerful fire of the world; this nation dropped two atomic bombs on civilians, this nation is the genocidal of American Indian people and did not recognizes the most basic rights  to the children of slaves ? Open your eyes and please stop telling me that the Americans are "Saints" and their country the "paradise" for those devoted to justice. It has only to look at the Ronald Reagan policy of aggression to the latin people (Salvador) or arrogance and stupidity of Harry Truman to realize that america could have been a beautiful dream messed up by the largest military-industrial complex that the world ever known. Review your offcial version of the story of the United States and you will see that america united states is a world quite manichaean. 1/3 of young families with children living in poverty. Thus, in young families whose parents have less than 30 years, the poverty rate increased by 6 points in 5 years, reaching a record 37.3 percent in 2010. More generally, the number of people of all ages living in poverty is now 46.5 million, more than 15% of the national population. The poverty line for a family of four is set at 23,492 dollars annual income ! While the obligation to ensure, as decided by the reform of President Barack Obama, will enter into force on 1 January 2014, some 48 million people are still not insured for their health in the country, at 15.4% in 2012, a rate virtually unchanged again. Workers! With financial capitalism your future is assured ! ...Let's be serious five minutes...

    Sorry if my arguments may seem "black and white" for some of you but I want to clarify that I am neither anti-American nor pro-communist. I remain lucid and I do not tell to me dreams and chimeras. My country will not win the increasing globalization but what France has yet to prove to the world today ? France, the country of human rights, moribund empire for some, full of contradictions for others but France will remain a high value in history, philosophy, arts, sport, architecture, dramaturgy, industry, engineering, medecine, aeronautic and so on (contrary to what you might think, frinik). France is not just a country with geographical borders; this is an idea, a knowledge, an expertise and the passion of a changing world. It is not limited to an army, an economy or a system.

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Tanker on Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:20 am

    You sound pretty damned ignorant for a 44 year old man.  

    France is a great country.  No one has said anything different, up to this point.  The USA is a great country also.

    You seem to have a special vitriol against America that has been released by the mention of France's potential problem in global competitiveness.

    You self righteously talk about genocide of American Indians while you hypocritically remain silent about the torture and murder committed by France in it's dirty war in Algeria from 1954 to 1962. It wasn't until a special action by the French national assembly in that it could even be formally acknowledged as guerre d' Algerie in France itself.  Was it even mentioned in school when you grew up?

    You mention aggression to latin people and denying rights to the children of slaves while you forget the record of France in Indo-China and the treatment of Romani and Arab immigrants in present day France who have been marginalized and denied basic rights.  Very convenient.  Just ask the Algerians and the Vietnamese people of the period what they thought of Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité.

    Are you aware that $20 billion in African money sits in the Bank of France, held in trust by the French government?  This money is only earning 0.75% interest.  How much interest is the French government earning each year?  These funds belong to 14 African countries which were compelled to make deposits starting 50 years ago when they were part of the French colonial empire.  The ministers of these countries want their money back.  Why doesn't the French government give the money back to the countries which it forced to make the deposits when they were colonies?  It appears no country has a monopoly on exploiting the third world.

    WW2 was total war.  Civilians were targeted by both sides unfortunately.  Japan let 100,000 of it's own soldiers starve and waste away in New Guinea rather than let them surrender.  The military rulers of Japan planned to sacrifice as many civilians as possible to resist any invasion and they were not prepared to surrender.  The cost to America to invade would have been horrendous and the cost in Japanese lives, both military and civilian even more so.  The two bombs that were dropped convinced the emperor to do the unthinkable...surrender.  Nothing else would have.  Even then the military clique tried to capture him and prevent his radio broadcast.  As horrible as the two atomic bombs were they were less horrible then an invasion would have been.  You and the rest of the world can be grateful that the US developed those bombs before the Axis did.  America has nothing to apologize for in their use.

    The US, through the Marshall Plan rebuilt Europe, including your own country, after WW2.  France was able to rebuild in peace and security, without the need to worry about a defense that was provided in large part by US troops and money.  If you think for a minute that Stalin would have stopped in Germany in 1945 if the US had packed up and gone home you are the one who needs to open his eyes.  From the arrival of American troops in 1917 until and past the liberation of France and the restoration of the French State, France has much to be grateful for to the United States and it's allies.  Some people are too ignorant or ideological to acknowledge that.

    You say you're not anti American or pro-communist but you sound just like that special brand of euro communist that oh so fashionably despises America while he secretly watches American movies and sips American whiskey.

    I didn't want a fight with you but I won't stand still for a rabid, unprovoked attack.  Just remember my friend, that we all live in glass houses and no one should be throwing stones.
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    Wörghern

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Wörghern on Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:05 am

    Tanker wrote:You sound pretty damned ignorant for a 44 year old man.

    Calm down. I didn't insult you. Don't insult me, Ok ? And don't make me tell what I have NOT told about USA. And don't make me THINK what I already know or what I have to know about USA and my country. When you will be polite, perhaps I should talk to you again. Discussion is OVER for me.


    PS: and do not worry about me, I'd rather be ignorant in a false world, than a "scholar" in a very real world. I am an ignorant man who is aware of the world in which he lives, the country in which he lives. I am an ignorant man who dreams about freedom. I am a man of conviction even if you do not like it. And to conclude this nauseous discussion, I'll tell you clearly the back of my mind through the words of a great man, an american man, a courageous man, than I sincerely respect and who inspires me and maybe you will understand that history is not the one that you have learned on benches of school.

    “ Man, I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No, I am not going 10,000 miles to help murder, kill, and burn other people to simply help continue the domination of white slavemasters over dark people the world over. This is the day and age when such evil injustice must come to an end. Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go ten thousand miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights ? My enemy is the white people, not the Viet Cong ... You're my opposer when I want freedom. You're my opposer when I want justice. You're my opposer when I want equality. You won't even stand up for me in America because of my religious beliefs, and you want me to go somewhere and fight, when you won't even stand up for my religious beliefs at home. ” Muhammad Ali.
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    Wörghern

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Wörghern on Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:31 am

    Donken wrote:Stay ontopic guys! Its a discussion about the best thing in life, Holidays!


    Thank you Donken Wink Back to the harsh reality, unfortunately... Laughing
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    Wörghern

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Wörghern on Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:37 pm

    Tanker wrote:

    You self righteously talk about genocide of American Indians while you hypocritically remain silent about the torture and murder committed by France in it's dirty war in Algeria from 1954 to 1962. It wasn't until a special action by the French national assembly in that it could even be formally acknowledged as guerre d' Algerie in France itself.  Was it even mentioned in school when you grew up? Just ask the Algerians and the Vietnamese people of the period what they thought of Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité.


    Ask me. I know more than you on this sensitive subject. I should answer because I have Algerian blood by my father. I'm not at all bothered with the questions though this is just your ignorance offends me. But if you would like to know my opinion, I do not support the crimes committed in Setif and Guelma and I say this with a deep wound in my heart but I love my country, la France. I do not support the crimes committed in Indochina by my country, no more than those committed against the people of Madagascar. Many of my close friends have origins; Algerian, Moroccan, Congolese, Senegalese because we grew up together...I'm not a hypocrite because this is an evidence for me. I am convinced that, in fact, the strength of our country is its melting pot. My family is full of this heritage and I'm proud of it. But this is just details and private questions of my life i don't want to talk to you. So this is a big mistake on your part misjudging somebody then that apart from its age and its roots, you know nothing.

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Tanker on Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:12 pm

    I'm merely letting you know that for every bad point or criticism that can be pointed out about one country, an equal number can be pointed out about any other country.

    We have a saying in English, "the pot calling the kettle black". I think it applies in this case.

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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by Tanker on Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:21 pm

    Donken, I didn't want to go off topic until I saw this gem:

    Wörghern wrote: USA is a hungry monster, insatiable and ruthless and contribute to the impoverishment of the Third World.

    I couldn't let that ridiculous statement go unanswered.
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    Re: Holidays !

    Post by lockie on Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:53 pm

    I closed the topic to avoid some misunderstanding.

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