Latest topics

» Best laptop for playing
by frinik Today at 1:05 am

» Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
by lockie Yesterday at 11:59 pm

» Woofie the Dog's Skin Shop
by woofiedog Yesterday at 9:25 pm

» Campaign: Otto Carius (WIP)
by lockie Yesterday at 11:15 am

» All of the command keys are set to ???
by lockie Yesterday at 8:00 am

» Sta scranny 001:Error
by mechanic Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:51 pm

» Missing Keyboard Defaults
by Lightning62 Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:10 pm

» Any way to separate infantry from tanks?
by aleader Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:50 pm

» STA(Steel Tank Add-on) 3.2 (Steel Fury)
by Lightning62 Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:46 pm

December 2017

MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031

Calendar Calendar


    Pz.III in SF

    Share
    avatar
    33lima
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 459
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Location : Belfast, NI

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by 33lima on Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:03 pm

    there is some informatio  here about the use of the Panzer III N in early Tiger batallions:

    http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers.htm

    See the chart and information in the section 'Origins of the Schwere Panzer Abteilungen'.

    The Tiger batallions deployed to Tunisia had Panzer III Ns so this tank would be an ideal tank to feature in this mission. lots of interesting pics here, of Panzer III N in a Tiger unit in Tunisia:

    http://www.tiif.de/print.php?threadid=440

    The only thing is...it should not have skirt armour on hull or turret...that came later. Do we have a model of the Panzer III N with no schurzen?

    avatar
    33lima
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 459
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Location : Belfast, NI

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by 33lima on Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:00 pm

    PS speaking of the Panzer III, I see the solid drive sprocket has now been fixed, so that the spokes now have gaps between them. Thanks - it looks much better!



    Will the version in 'Panzer Grey' be fixed too?

    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3777
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Pz.III in SF

    Post by lockie on Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:01 pm

    There are four types of Pz.III in SF.

    1,2,3 are the same. The difference is only camo.
    And Pz.III N, which could be transformed in two additional types:

    1. Pz.III N without schurzen (could be easily done)
    2. Pz.III L, where the difference is only gun 50mm (for the future)

    From all mentioned ones only two has sprocket with holes: green camo and Pz.III N
    As for new mission for Pz.III N, then I think there should be a short story, i.e. like this:
    The first combat use of the Stuart took place on November 19 1941 in a sharp battle between the 8th Hussars and Kampfgruppe Stephan of Pz.Rgt5 of the 21.Panzer Div. near Gabr Saleh. The 8th Hussars lost 20 Stuarts, while the Germans lost two PzKpfw III and one PzKpfw II light tank.
    avatar
    33lima
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 459
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Location : Belfast, NI

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by 33lima on Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:09 pm

    Sounds good but November 1941 is much too early for the N model. It's a good tank for Tunisia, Spring 1943.

    I thought SF had a Panzer III (early J model?) with a short 5cm gun, as well as the one with the long one. A short-gunned Pz IIIJ would be ideal for a November 1941 battle.
    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3777
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by lockie on Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:23 pm

    33lima wrote:Sounds good but November 1941 is much too early for the N model. It's a good tank for Tunisia, Spring 1943.
    It's just example of the short story.

    I thought SF had a Panzer III (early J model?) with a short 5cm gun, as well as the one with the long one. A short-gunned Pz IIIJ would be ideal for a November 1941 battle.
    Oh, no. Pz.III J(37/50mm) has the biggest number of the missions in SF. Anything, but Pz.III J.
    avatar
    frinik
    TSF Member-Golden Feather
    TSF Member-Golden Feather

    Posts : 1406
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Age : 61
    Location : Bogota-Colombia

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by frinik on Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:43 pm

    This page shows all the various models of the Panzer III:

    http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer_III.php

    Actually the N models was produced starting in 1942 so we could easily have a scenario taking place in summer 1942 Libya with the Ausf N.
    avatar
    33lima
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 459
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Location : Belfast, NI

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by 33lima on Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:43 pm

    frinik wrote:This page shows all the various models of the Panzer III:

    http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer_III.php

    Actually the N models was produced starting in 1942 so we could easily have a scenario taking place in summer 1942 Libya with the Ausf N.

    The date production began and the date they entered combat in North Africa are different matters. Online, there a good many pictured in Tunisia in early 1943, but there's an absence of earlier pictures, despite the natural British tendency to photograph killed or abandoned German tanks, of which there were plenty to photogtaph, after Second Alamein.

    Several sources say the N was specifically intended as a support tank for the heavy tank batalions -  for example 'When first introduced the Panzer III Ausf N was issued to the new heavy tank companies, to provide close support for the Tiger tanks'   ( http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_panzer_III_ausf_N.html ). This seems consistent with the photographic evidence. I doubt there were Pz III Ns in N Africa until after el Alamein; it seems fairly likely that they first arrived with the Tigers.

    PS there is this...

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=15OPBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT46&lpg=PT46&dq=panzer+3+75mm&source=bl&ots=R3mxRrOvlG&sig=1YZA5956aqdL2Vv0-3PuFW0CkPQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4WwYVaemMcPnaqaFgNgD&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=panzer%203%2075mm&f=false

    ...which indicates that the Pz III N was met in 'the Middle East' as well as Tunisia. Neverhtless, from that late March 1943 intelligence bulletin, this tank was in spring 1943 a novelty, known only from two examples, one 'demolished' and one captured. So early 1943 seems a safe date for first combat in North Africa.
    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3777
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by lockie on Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:38 pm

    Guys, u've lost the main idea of my request! Smile
    I asked about short story(scenario), which will be the base for the mission. If there are no any true story, then let's make a fake. I.e. Tunisia, Autumn 1943, there is a tank patrol (2d Hussar battalion) of the British troops near El Alamein. U've to attack occupied by the enemy positions and capture them. There will be:
    German:
    1. 2xTigers (AI)
    2. 3xPzIIIN+platoon infantry (user)

    Britain
    1. 2x infantry platoon (in trenches)
    2. 3x QF-17 ATG
    3. 9x Churchill (counter-attack)
    avatar
    frinik
    TSF Member-Golden Feather
    TSF Member-Golden Feather

    Posts : 1406
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Age : 61
    Location : Bogota-Colombia

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by frinik on Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:25 am

    What I read also says :

    " When first introduced the Panzer III Ausf N was issued to the new heavy tank companies, to provide close support for the Tiger tanks (at full strength one of these companies would contain ten Panzer III Ausf Ns and nine Tigers). They were also used by the Panzer regiments in the Panzer divisions, serving with the similarly armed Panzer IVs. .."

    Which means the Panzers III Ausf N were also deplaoyed with Panzer IV Ausf  F1 thus even though it's unlikely that it would have been deployed in large numbers in North Africa prior to Janaury 10943 it's not impossible that they would have been deployed in small numbers along with Panzer IV Ausf. F1 in Libya. Therefore Lockie we could imagine a scenario set in October 1942 using the Ausf N .However as Lima33 rightly pointed out the Ausf N was not outfitted with Schuertzen until March 1943.

    Why doe sit have to be a North African scenario? The maps are not as stimulating as those of the Eastern front.. Why not set a 1943 scenario in the East with a Schwere Panzer Abteilung engaged in mop up operations in August 1943 along the Mius? There, the current Panzer Ausf. N could be featured realistically? You could even introduce the Pak43 as well in the same mission.... You could have German missions with the Panzer III Ausf N and Soviet ones with the KV-1 S or even some of the American or British land lease tanks if you want. For example the Sherman with the 75 mm gun .

    6 Panzer VI Ausf F1 + 3 Panzer Ausf III N + Waffen SS infantry

    Against

    3 Shermans M4A2 with the 75 mm and 3 KV-1S with Soviet 1943 infantry
    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3777
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by lockie on Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:35 pm

    frinik wrote:
    Why doe sit have to be a North African scenario?
    It doesn't matter. Topic was separated from "Capture Tiger", that's kinda continue on talking, but with Pz.III N as a main tank. And of course, me may use East front area for the mission.

    Why not set a 1943 scenario in the East with a Schwere Panzer Abteilung engaged in mop up operations in August 1943 along the Mius?
    Sounds good for me!

    Meanwhile I've found some quotes/text devoted to "Kasserine Pass" battle, 1943. It is from magazine Osprey, M3 MEDIUM TANK vs PANZER III, Kasserine Pass 1943.


    The Ausf N of July 1942, the last version, had the 7.5cm KwK 37 L/24 short gun as originally mounted on the PzKpfw IV. Its primary role was to protect Tiger tanks.
    By 1942 the roles of the PzKpfw III and IV were reversed. The lighter PzKpfw III became the infantry support tank, and the PzKpfw IV
    Ausf H with a long high-velocity 7.5cm KwK 40 L/48 gun was the main medium tank intended to take on other tanks. The PzKpfw III was the second most produced German tank being surpassed by the PzKpfw IV.

    On the 18th 1942 British units in Tunisia made their first contact with Germans. Allied forces in Tunisia made limited, cautious progress and by the 27th were only 15 miles from Tunis. But the German defenses proved to be strong, and they managed limited counterattacks as they built up their forces flowing in from Europe. Some of these German counterattacks were successful, but others were beaten back. The 10. Panzer-Division began arriving in Tunisia in late November. On December 11 the Eighth Army again began to advance into Libya. The Germans soon retreated to avoid being outflanked. In western Tunisia V British Corps in the north continued its attacks while the II US Corps in the south broke off its own. By late December 1942 rain and poor visibility were hampering both sides' operations.
    Panzer-Armee. Rommel commanded the Deutsche-Italienische Panzerarmee in the south with the Afrikakorps now under Generaleutnant Hans Cramer. It contained 15. Panzer-Division, an Italian armored division, and a Luftwaffe infantry brigade. There were also two Italian corps, XX and XXI Corpo, each with two Italian infantry divisions and a German light Africa division to stiffen them.
    10. and 21. Panzer-Divisionen were positioning themselves to test the Americans who were defending Raid Pass. Both divisions relied on the PzKpfw III.

    The battle for Kasserine Pass was actually a series of engagements that lasted from the end of January through February 1943, culminating in the battle of El Guettar on March 23, 1943, the first significant US victory over German armor.

    The Germans and Italians in northeast Tunisia were holding back the British who were less than 40 miles from Tunis, the vital Axis supply port and potential evacuation point. The Axis had little operational depth. Their western defensive line ran along the low Eastern Dorsal Mountains, roughly paralleling Tunisia's east coast. The Germans would have preferred to add depth to the defense by holding the higher Western Dorsal Mountains somewhat further inland, but lacked the necessary forces. Far to the south Italian infantry and the Afrikakorps were dug m on the narrow frontage of the Mareth Line. There the Eighth Army was unable to resume the offensive because of its overstretched supply lines. Only 60 miles to the northwest were thinly stretched elements of the 1st US Armored Division on an 80-mile front. It was relying on its mobility and the generally moderate terrain to respond to attacks.

    The first move was for the Germans to launch a spoiling attack at Fa'fd Pass, which was weakly held by the French. Just prior to the attack the Americans to the southwest executed a raid on Sened Station, driving off the Italian defenders. On January 30 two 21. Panzer-Division battle groups attacked Fai'd Pass and Rebaou Pass, 4 miles to the south. The American response was confused with senior American commanders too far to the rear to appraise the situation and lacking sufficient forces to support the French who were now caught between two Kampfgruppen (battle groups). The Americans only sent patrols to report on the situations at Fai'd and Rebaou.


    A view of the rugged terrain around Kasserine Pass.This perspective shows the view from the west looking towards the narrowest part of the pass. However, during the 1943 battle this dry riverbed would have been in full flood. (Patton Museum)

    As we can see there are no any notes that Pz.III N took part in the "Kasserine Pass" engagements. As for history we've the next facts:
    1. battle had place in Tunisia, area El Guettar, March 1943
    2. there were the next forces:
    GER & ITL
    - Afrikakorps under Rommel command, 10 and 21 Panzer-Division General von Arnim and Italian 131st Armored Division Centauro under Generaleutnant Hans Cramer

    GBR & USA
    - V British Corps(British 26th Armoured Brigade), II US Corps, 1st US Armored Division under Major-General Orlando Ward

    So, we can make out the story on the real base, i.e.:
    A couple Tigers from s.Pz.Abt. 501 reinforced with 3x Pz.III N from 10 Pz.TD under command Lieutenant Kurt Meyer attacked the defence line protected by parts of the V British Corps and 1st US Armored Division.

    Here we're:
    Axis
    1. 2x Pz.VI 'Tiger'
    2. 3x Pz.III N (user) + infantry platoon
    3. 3x Fiat L6-40

    Allies
    1. 3x QF-17 AT gun
    2. infantry paltoon
    3. 2x MG VICKERS
    4. 5x M3 'General lee' (counter-attack)



    The main problem will be only to make a new polygon. Unfortunately, I'm lack of the pictures from this area and don't have idea, should be the water there or not?

    PS
    And here's video:
    www.mediafire.com/watch/t6sseppr8e6uyia/R04_Deutsche+Afrika+Korps.mp4


    PPS
    The action in the Kasserine Pass cost the Germans 2,000 men and the Allies about 10,000 men, of which 6,500 were Americans.
    www.historylearningsite.co.uk/kasserine_pass.htm


    Last edited by lockie on Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:44 am; edited 3 times in total
    avatar
    33lima
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 459
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Location : Belfast, NI

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by 33lima on Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:01 pm

    No reason why we can't have more Eastern Front scenarios...as well. Personally I would like to see the Pz IIIN at Kursk. It would also be good to have a PZ IIIL or M with the 5cm gun and schhurzen which would be correct for Kursk and and maybe not too dificule to create, from the Ausf N.

    I think the desert terrain in 'Capture the Tiger' was excellent for tank warfare. Lots of low, rolling hills which provide cover for movement and fire positions, for both friend and foe. Small villages or even forts like those in Lockie's Dust in the Wind mission could be added.

    We now have an increasingly good selection of US and British vehicles and it would be really good to have more missions for these. Tunisia is a realy good theatre for such battles, though perhaps some special textures, with more greenery, would be better than the current desert one.
    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3777
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by lockie on Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:46 pm

    33lima wrote:No reason why we can't have more Eastern Front scenarios...as well. Personally I would like to see the Pz IIIN at Kursk.
    This is a good idea! I've source code of the Kursk polygon and started to adjusted it to the new mission a long time ago, ~ two years!
    Let's say:
    3x Pz.IIIN +infantry platoon +1x Pz.VI vs 7xT-34/43+2x infantry platoon. Let it be South salient.
    avatar
    frinik
    TSF Member-Golden Feather
    TSF Member-Golden Feather

    Posts : 1406
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Age : 61
    Location : Bogota-Colombia

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by frinik on Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:20 am

    My recollection of the area of Mareth after visiting the region several times is that it's fairly dry in general and parched in the summer( June -September).It's fairly hilly ( most of Tunisia is in fact hilly with tall mountains in the North close to Algeria)in that are all the way to the coast and there's sparse vegetation with shrubs and of course olive trees and eucalyptus trees here and there. The stock desert maps that we have will do fine. |There are no permanent rivers in that area only wadis which usually fill in winter time when it rains. No need to worry about a lake or river.

    I'll check through my collections of photos to post some of the region.
    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3777
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by lockie on Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:43 am

    I'm looking for confirmation that 16th Pz. Division in October 1942 had in their formation Pz.III N. During my investigation I've found an interesting info abt. this tank in the book by Thomas L. Jentz and Hilary Louis Doyle "Panzerkamfpwagen III Ausf.J, L, M, and N".



    Einmalige Serie Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N Development
    450 surplus 7.5 cm Kw.K. L/24 that had been assembled in mountings were left over as a result of the conversion of the Pz.Kpfw.IV to the 7.5 cm Kw.K.40 L/43. After the cancellation of the Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.K, an order was placed in February 1942 for these 450 7.5 cm Kw.K. L/24 to be mounted in Pz.Kpfw.III turrets.
    The Vvaffenamt reported on 4 June 1942: In accordance with our proposal, the short 7.5 cm Kw.K. L/24 is not to reenter production, instead the available 450 are to be installed in the current turrets of the Pz.Kpfw.III as an einmalige Serie (solitary production series, not to be repeated) in the months of July. August, and September.


    Auslauf Serie Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N Development
    A decision was made to complete the remainder of the order for Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.M as Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N with 7.5 cm Kw.K. L/24, on 7 November 1942, as follows: Due to receiving extraordinarily positive reports from the troops about the Pz.Kpfw.III with short 7.5 cm Kw.K, Hitler has ordered that plans be made to add breeches to the available 7.5 cm kurz Ersatzrohren ohne Verschluesse (replacement 7.5 cm gun tubes without breeches) and in addition restart production of the 7.5 cm Kw.K. L/24 in order to install these into the entire Auslauf (remaining new production) Pz.Kpfw.III and also to replace the 5 cm Kw.K. L/42 in refurbished Pz.Kpfw.III with the 7.5 cm Kw.K. L/24.

    An accelerated reduction in Pz.Kpfw.III production was discussed in the following Speer conferences with Hitler: On 7 November 1942 - Because even with the 5 cm Kw.K L/60 the Pz.Kpfw.III no longer meets the increased combat demands, it should be immediately determined if the Pz.Kpfw.III production can run out faster with a corresponding increase in Sturmgeschuetz production. On 1 December 1942 - after being shown possible conversion plans, Hitler decided to accelerate Pz.Kpfw.III conversion, so the Sturmgeschuetz production will be increased from 120 in December to 220 in June. And on 3 January 1943 - Hitler was informed that based on his conversion orders, instead of the 535 Pz.Kpfw.III mit L/60 planned to be completed from 1 January to 12 May, the following types and numbers are to be produced: 235 additional Sturmgeschuetz mit 7.5 cm StuK L/48, 100 Flammenwerfer, 56 Pz.Kpfw.III mit L/60 for Turkey, and 144 Pz.Kpfw.III mit 7.5 cm KwK L/24.

    Production
    Out of the order for 450 in the Einmalige Serie, a total of 447 were reported as being accepted by inspectors: 92 in July, 141 in August, 142 in September, and 72 in October 1942. The approximate number of Ausf.N from Eimalige Serie produced by each assembly plant are estimated by Fgst.Nr. analysis to have been about:

    Assembly Firm  No. Fgst.Nr.Serie Period
    Henschel.......26  73857-73900  Jul-Aug42
    Miag...........158 74692-74849  Jul-Sep42
    MNH............130 74857-74986  Jul-Sep42
    Daimler-Benz...10  75211-75220  Jul-Aug42
    Henschel.......101 75231-75339  Aug-Ocr.42
    Miag...........22  76379-76400  Oct42

    A total of 167 Ausf.N were completed in the Auslauf Serie, as follows:

    Assembly Firm  No. Fgst.Nr.Serie Period
    MNH............82  76279-76360   Apr-Ang43
    Miag...........85  77709-77793   Feb-May43
    ************

    As we can see the necessity to produce tank Pz.III N was due to big quantity of surplus 75mm guns after Pz.IV F1 modification and the fact was that current Pz.III with 50mm gun were not satisfied to battle conditions. But reports abt. new tank with short barrel 75mm were so good, that Hitler made decision to re-produce a new L/24 guns and equip with them some tanks instead 50mm. It does that situation with 75mm PzIII appearance was spontaneous and unforeseen. Same happened with Sd.Kfz 251/9 "Kanonenwagen", which was equipped with 75mm gun also.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Pz.III in SF

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:38 am