Latest topics

» Campaign "Steel Beast" (Pz.V "Panther") WIP
by mechanic Today at 12:29 pm

» Легкий танк Т-50/Light tank T-50
by will73 Yesterday at 10:00 pm

» Танк Пантера Д/А/Г/ Panther ausf.D,A,G
by lockie Yesterday at 5:52 pm

» il2 Sturmovik Stalingrad
by lockie Yesterday at 3:51 pm

» SF STA1.2 demo version?
by woofiedog Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:30 pm

» Video from SF
by geoweb35 Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:24 am

» How to get STA3.2 mod?
by lockie Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:18 pm

» STA(Steel Tank Add-on) 3.2 (Steel Fury)
by lockie Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:42 pm

» The Sun Comes Up, the Sun Goes Down
by woofiedog Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:17 pm

November 2017

MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
  12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
27282930   

Calendar Calendar


    Target Practice!

    Share
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
    avatar
    frinik
    TSF Member-Golden Feather
    TSF Member-Golden Feather

    Posts : 1396
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Age : 61
    Location : Abu Dhabi-UAE

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by frinik on Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:58 am

    So for i have only tested the M4A3 Sherman with the 76mm gun!
    And the results are a shock! It is insanely overpowered.


    I am not surprised. I already made mention of it and complained just after it came out. It was taking out a Tiger at over 1200 metres with frontal shots ! Totally insane!. On my own I have lowered the penetration value in the to 0.75( I think it was ascribed 0.82 default value at the time) in the common res. This is what I use in my installations and I am Ok with it..

    By the way Donken this is an excellent initiative because in Steel Fury I have a feeling that some of the guns were artificially kept underpowered on purpose by some people who had the own agenda. I won't mention any name even though he is long gone form our fora.

    Could you please test the Kwk 36, 42 and 43 and the D25 of the JS2 because I have a feeling they are underpowered as well. Likewise for the Pak 39 of the Hetzer and the 85 mm( C53) of the TY34/85 and SU-85 and the Pak44 of the Jagdtiger . I have increased their penetration values slightly in my game. I want to see if my hunch was correct.

    On the other hand the 100mm of the SU-100 and the KwK40 L48 of the Panzer IV Ausf H seem overpowered.

    Great work!Thanks.
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
    avatar
    frinik
    TSF Member-Golden Feather
    TSF Member-Golden Feather

    Posts : 1396
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Age : 61
    Location : Abu Dhabi-UAE

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by frinik on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:01 am

    Good stuff! As I suspected the Kwk40 L48 is a bit too strong. What percentage should we decrease the AP pen value? Currently it's pegged at 0.87 I think.

    The Kwk42 should be about right but a bit under I suspect. The Kwk43 imo seems way under powered.
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
    avatar
    frinik
    TSF Member-Golden Feather
    TSF Member-Golden Feather

    Posts : 1396
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Age : 61
    Location : Abu Dhabi-UAE

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by frinik on Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:13 pm

    The Jagdtiger's gun is overpowered??? I am surprised...

    Which Tiger you are talking about?

    Why don't you use one of the DOTs(pillboxes) for target practice?

    Tanker
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 379
    Join date : 2014-07-27

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by Tanker on Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:20 pm

    This may be of interest.  This study concluded that neither the 76mm HVAP T4 round or the 17pdr sabot could be reliably penetrate the front glacis plate of the Panther in one , fair hit.

    http://www.ww2f.com/topic/22293-us-army-firing-test-of-76mm-17pdr/

    I've pasted the conclusions of the study below.

    5. Findings
    a. The 17pdr SABOT fired in this test has penetrating power equal or slightly better than that of the 17pdr APCBC and the 76mm HVAP, T4. It is, however, definitely inferior to these ammunitions because of its inaccuracy. The board invites attention to the fact that its findings and conclusions apply only to the ammunition furnished it and may not apply to good quality 17pdr SABOT.

    b. The accuracy of 76mm APC, M62 is satisfactory. However this ammunition is definitely inferior to either the 17pdr APCBC or the 76mm HVAP, T4, because of its poor penetrating power.

    c. The 17pdr APCBC and the 76mm HVAP, T4, are both highly accurate ammunitions. In the opinion of the members of the board, two of whom have had considerable experience test firing British and American tank and antitank weapons, the 76mm HVAP, T4 is the most accurate tank or antitank ammunition encountered to date.

    d. The 17pdr APCBC is more effective against the front of a Panther tank than is the 76mm HVAP, T4. Its margin of superiority is not great. Neither one can be depended upon to penetrate the glacis plate in one fair hit on average quality plate.

    e. Combining 76mm HVAP, T4 projectile with 17pdr APCBC propellant offers no advantages over a standard ammunition.

    f. Because of its accuracy and since the core is essentially the same as that in 17pdr SABOT, 76mm HVAP, T4 projectile with 17pdr SABOT propellant may provide an ammunition superior to 17pdr SABOT as regards accuracy and to 17pdr APCBC and 76mm HVAP as regards penetration.

    6. Conclusions
    a. That the 17pdr SABOT of the lot tested is considered an unsatisfactory ammunition because of its inaccuracy.

    b. That the 76mm APC, M62 is considered an unsatisfactory ammunition for use against heavy armor because of its inferior penetration.

    c. That the 17pdr APCBC and the 76mm HVAP, T4 are considered the best antitank ammunitions available in these calibers for use against heavy armor. The 17pdr APCBC is somewhat superior to the 76mm HVAP, T4, against the Panther Tank. Neither one can be be depended upon to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther in one fair hit on average quality plate.

    d. That the possibilities should be investigated of using 76mm HVAP, T4 projectile with 17pdr SABOT propellant, if 17pdr guns are made available to U.S. units.
    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3726
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by lockie on Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:10 pm

    That's definitely a very interesting investigation! Well done! I think it'll be a good idea, if Donken will make a separate mod with a new characteristics for the guns, i.e. "Realistic guns" And of course, would be funny to try a new mission with targets. I may include it in GMP1.x.
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3726
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by lockie on Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:48 pm

    I'll decrease HVAP penetration to 0.75 in the next update, now it has 0.9.

    BTW
    It's possible to make target model consist of some blocks, i.e. "4". Then user may check out his accuracy. Also target could be movable, i.e. if hit - it goes down then goes up.
    avatar
    frinik
    TSF Member-Golden Feather
    TSF Member-Golden Feather

    Posts : 1396
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Age : 61
    Location : Abu Dhabi-UAE

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by frinik on Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:43 pm

    I would also suggest lowering the value for kwk40L48 from 0.87 to 0.85 ( pzgr 39/40 ). The pak 39 pof the Hetzer on the other is ridiculously underpowered with 0.7 penetration value for the AP shell. It should be at least 0.8...
    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3726
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by lockie on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:09 am

    frinik wrote:I would also suggest lowering the value for kwk40L48 from 0.87 to 0.85 ( pzgr 39/40 ). The pak 39 pof the Hetzer on the other is ridiculously underpowered with 0.7 penetration value for the AP shell. It should be at least 0.8...
    It's reasonable. I'll change on:
    PZGR37_75L48,0x01,%SHELL_AP%,PAK39,770,43,0.75
    PZGR39_75L48,0x01,%SHELL_AP%,KWK40L48,790,48,0.83
    avatar
    frinik
    TSF Member-Golden Feather
    TSF Member-Golden Feather

    Posts : 1396
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Age : 61
    Location : Abu Dhabi-UAE

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by frinik on Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:52 am




    Lockie I love you Man! Laughing I give you an argument and you agree with my conclusions and then you post values which are totally different from those I was proposing!!!!! affraid


    In my opinion it does not make sense to have such a large diff in penetration values (0.75 pen for the Pak39 L48 Hetzer and 0.83 for the kwk40 L48) between both guns since they are essentially closely related and have equal barrel length and there's only 3% diff is shell velocity. I would suggest 0.79 for the Hetzer .

    As well 0.75 for the Sherman seems to very low. I would suggest 0.78.
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message

    Tanker
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 379
    Join date : 2014-07-27

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by Tanker on Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:43 am

    frinik wrote:I would also suggest lowering the value for kwk40L48 from 0.87 to 0.85 ( pzgr 39/40 ). The pak 39 pof the Hetzer on the other is ridiculously underpowered with 0.7 penetration value for the AP shell. It should be at least 0.8...

    Well...he is decreasing the 76 mm gun HVAP from .9 to .75. So do you believe the pak 39 and the kek40L48 would be superior in penetration?

    The problem with all this is that it's really speculation. We are sort of grasping in the dark. We don't have a lot of definitive ballistics tests on some of these systems so that we can model them. I guess you could take a Panther and fire APCBC, SABOT and HVAP at it and see the number of penetrations you get of the front glacis and relate it back to the study above and then adjust the shell penetration stats.
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3726
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by lockie on Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:35 am

    Tanker wrote:
    The problem with all this is that it's really speculation. We are sort of grasping in the dark.
    Tanker, this is just a game Smile I'm not going to make a secret from what STA contains and what the changes are applied. STA is just a basis. I want players to make their personal modes/adjusting whatever. And some users do, that's why I've shared my knowledge abt the game and I'll do it again and again. (I.e. I'm going to write a short explanation how games manage with random appearing. It's interesting and now available thanks to help will73).
    As for shells, I may say that complains abt superiority of the Shernan M4A3/76 took place a long time ago. I was from the very beginning of this tank creating and remember this tank(guns/shells) had some several masters. I didn't change anything, coz I was out of experience and didn't has any proofs that smth. wrong. But now Donken suggested a very simple, but clear system how to check out the shell penetration. And I see it has a sense Wink So, now we're not in the dark anymore.
    I just wonder why nobody made such "target" before.
    avatar
    will73
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 343
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Україна мКиїв

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by will73 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:38 pm

    Для 75mmSTUK40L48 (StugIIIF, StugIIIG), KWK40L48 (PzIVH), PAK39(Hetzer) балістика снарядів однакова

    Ось допуски які впливають на бронепробиття снарядів при стрільбі
    1 Допуск при виготовлені метального заряду
    2.Допуск на температуру заряду
    3.Допуск на вологість пороху                                      
    4.Допуск на зношування каналу ствола
    5. Допуск в самих снарядах(вага, центрування, ведучий поясок)
    6. Допуски в метеоумовах при яких була стрільба

    Мінять 0.87 до 0.85 - 1.74% це неправильно
    По артилерійському німецькому довіднику того періоду "Артилерийские пороха и заряды" ГИОП 1950р. переклад Мигрина
    В одній партії Pzgr.Patr.39KwK40 снарядів,  допуск заводський на згоряння дігліколевого пороху Digl.Kr.P-Gl марки G= 690-10+20Ккал/кг. (30/6.9=4.35%), маємо різницю в одній партії снарядів в згорянні метального заряду - 4.35%, ділимо на ефективну дію пороху на снаряд в гарматах того періоду (десь в районі 33%) маємо різницю в швидкості (бронепробитті)-1.45% і це в одній партії снарядів. Плюс нерівномірність ваги завантаження метального заряду  
    пункти 1-3 при складанні крайніх умов сумарно  можуть давати від -4% до +4% швидкості снаряду сторінка 51
    пунк 4 може давати до -10% в швидкості снаряду (повне зношення каналу ствола KWK40L48 (PAK-39) точно не пам'ятаю вроді як 7500 пострілів), звичайно ствол гармати міняють раніше в районі 4-5%

    Тоді маємо при
    новому незношеному стволі гармати         розбіжності в пробитті буде від -4%(сума негативних факторів) до +4% (сума позитивних факторів )   від теоретичних розрахунків    
    при зношеному стволі -4%                      розбіжність в пробитті буде від -8%(сума негативних факторів)  до +0% (сума позитивних факторів )  від теоретичних розрахунків  
    а не знаючи пунктів 1-4 ми маємо можливу розбіжність від-8 до +4%, як маючи таку розбіжність правити математичну модель снаряду?
    (потрібно використовувати таблиці стрільби для цих гармат і  снарядів, а не практичні стрільби на полігоні де розбіжності в швидкості вильоту снаряду(бронепробиттю) можуть бути до 12%)
    патрон 7.5см Pzgr.Patr.39KwK40     11.52кг(заряд Digl.Kr.P-Gl  2430+90гр) 74.8cm       790m/c снаряд Pzgr39       6.8кг(заряд20г)         детонатор Bd.Z.(5103) (3мс) трасер 3-5сек
    avatar
    lockie
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 3726
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 50
    Location : Ukraine, Kyiv

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by lockie on Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:07 pm

    Here tolerances that affect pe shells during shot.
    1. tolerance during shell production
    2. tolerance with the charge temperature
    3. tolerance to the charge humidity
    5. tolerance on barrel derogation
    4. tolerance on weight, center, driving belt
    6. tolerances on weather conditions
    Ці параметри впливають лише на точність моделі. Нима можна знехтувати.
    It effects only the model accuracy. We may don't count it.


    Last edited by lockie on Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    frinik
    TSF Member-Golden Feather
    TSF Member-Golden Feather

    Posts : 1396
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Age : 61
    Location : Abu Dhabi-UAE

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by frinik on Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:55 pm

    @ Tanker I believe the value of 0.75 is too low I personally use 0.78. But it's only for the HVAP .The AP I use 0.82. This is close to the value of the kwk40 L48.I believe the 2 guns were fairly well matched although some experts said the kwk40 L48 was as performing as the Soviet 85mm.I know it's bit arbitrary but we need to set values to play the game and we need to be as accurate as possible while maintaining realism base don war records and experience and comparing the guns calibre, barrel length what we know of the shells etc...

    @ Donken so is Pak 44 undergunned or is it accurate?

    Re the pak39 and kwk40L48 you and I agree fully.
    avatar
    will73
    TSF Member
    TSF Member

    Posts : 343
    Join date : 2014-07-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Україна мКиїв

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by will73 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:33 pm

    1. tolerance during shell production
    2. tolerance with the charge temperature
    3. tolerance to the charge humidity
    5. tolerance on barrel derogation
    4. tolerance on weight, center, driving belt
    6. Tolerances on weather conditions
    Ці параметри впливають лише на точність моделі. Нима можна знехтувати.
    It effects only the model accuracy. We may don't count it.

    Я пишу про реальні дані таблиці  що на якомусь полігоні обстрілювали з танкової гармати бронелисти (танк) і було от таке пробиття Пробиття реальне, а не з гри.
    Не знаючи даних з пунктів 1-6 неможливо напряму застосовувати  ці дані по пробиттю в грі. Бо будуть помилки в діапазоні -8%+4%.
    Треба ставити розрахункові дані з таблиць стрільб, а не полігонні обстріли (невідомо в якому стані гармати, невідомо якому стані снаряди )
    При чому тут модель в грі, до пунктів 1-6?
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
    avatar
    frinik
    TSF Member-Golden Feather
    TSF Member-Golden Feather

    Posts : 1396
    Join date : 2014-07-27
    Age : 61
    Location : Abu Dhabi-UAE

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by frinik on Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:59 am

    There are other values that could affect penetration.As a reminder here's what the values stand for in the shell entries:
    1 Name
    2 Flag (data\k42\loc_rus\levels\levels\common\weap_defs.engcfg)
    3 Type
    4 Name of Gun
    5 Initial velocity, m/s
    6 Length of the barrel for which we have the initial velocity, cal
    7 Armor Piercing action
    8 Normal at which ricochet
    9 Cumulative action (diameter of core for piercing)
    10 Concussive action
    11 Fragmentation
    12 Incendiary
    13 Projectile weight, kg
    14 Weight of explosives, kg
    15 Air Resistance k1
    16 Influence of gravity m / s ^ 2
    17 KVO x (square deviation on X)
    18 KVO y (square deviation on Y)
    19 The tendency to fracture
    20 Time of engine (gas generator),s
    21 Effect of Wind
    22 Air Resistance k2
    23 Air Resistance k3
    24 Sound hitting the ground
    25 Sound contact with armor
    26 Sound entering the building
    27 Sound contact with water
    28 Sound contact with human
    29 sounds of flight projectile
    30 Type of target for AI
    31 Effective range of the shooting, m
    32 Shot Penalty for AI
    33 Textual name
    34 Pattern of explosion
    35 Pattern of rebound
    36 Pattern of fragments
    37 Modes of a projectile (0 - without breaking, 0x1 - impact, 0x2 - delayed, 0x4 - input the distance)
    38 Time of detonation, ms
    39 Minimum delay time, ms
    40 The maximum delay time, ms
    41 Number of steps
    42 Color of the tracer
    43 Time of burning tracer, s
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message

    Sponsored content

    Re: Target Practice!

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:15 pm