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    Formation types

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    lockie
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    Formation types

    Post by lockie on Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:05 pm

    In the game u may order to er wingmen to stay "tight/wide". There are two icons in the map mode, which are responsible for mentioned operations.
    But in fact, these commands are very vaguely. After I've pressed icon, i.e. "tighten" I hardly remember during battle, what formation type I had exactly. If I've a look on the map the icons are always dimmed. So ,there are no any hints.
    That's why I decided to fix this issue. And now, in case I forgot what the "line" was, u've ability to open map and have a look. Both icons now could be highlighted.


    The next step would be good to know - did u close the hatches or not?
    There is key "6", which open/close all hatches at one time. Hey, we even have indicator of "open/close"! But this indicator does nothing, coz u never know did u open hatches or close. If u press key "6", the indicator will start blinking. If u press again, the indicator will start blinking again. And again and again consequently. There is no info at all. So, would be nice to have such indicator:
    - if hatches closed, it has white color
    - if hatches opened, it has red color


    Last edited by lockie on Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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    lockie
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by lockie on Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:38 am

    Found interesting picture from "Balkan in fire".

    As we can see there were available two formation:
    - bell
    - wedge
    Those formations were removed for some reasons in SF.

    BTW
    Does SABOW has such formations?

    Tanker
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by Tanker on Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:35 pm

    lockie wrote:Found interesting picture from "Balkan in fire".

    As we can see there were available two formation:
    - bell
    - wedge
    Those formations were removed for some reasons in SF.

    BTW
    Does SABOW has such formations?

    SABOW has line, column, echelon left and right.  I don't believe it has wedge or vee. For a 4 tank platoon the echelon is essentially a vee, in SABOW at least.
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    lockie
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by lockie on Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:53 pm

    Tanker wrote:
    SABOW has line, column, echelon left and right.
    What dose "echelon left/right"? Could u enclose image/sketch with explanations?

    I don't believe it has wedge or vee.  For a 4 tank platoon the echelon is essentially a vee, in SABOW at least.
    OK, are there anyone who has experience with "Balkan in fire" and may explain what does these marks?

    As my point, it looks exactly as formation: vee, wedge for 5 units.

    Tanker
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by Tanker on Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:26 pm

    diagram A-6 shows echelon for a 4 tank platoon.  Note that the platoon leader is in the second position.
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/5-10/appa.pdf

    Tanker
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by Tanker on Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:31 pm

    lockie wrote:
    Tanker wrote:
    SABOW has line, column, echelon left and right.
    What dose "echelon left/right"? Could u enclose image/sketch with explanations?

    I don't believe it has wedge or vee.  For a 4 tank platoon the echelon is essentially a vee, in SABOW at least.
    OK, are there anyone who has experience with "Balkan in fire" and may explain what does these marks?

    As my point, it looks exactly as formation: vee, wedge for 5 units.

    The left picture is a wedge and the right one is a vee, at least according to the reference I linked to.
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    lockie
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by lockie on Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:10 pm

    Tanker wrote:diagram A-6 shows echelon for a 4 tank platoon.  Note that the platoon leader is in the second position.
    Thanks for explanations.

    I've found User's manual, where we can see that game has vee and wedge formation. Then it is a very strange why SF doesn't has such formations, I'm not talking abt. SABOW, which is more modern game to compare with previous ones. And of course the leader is Panzer Elite inspite of its venerable age.
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    frinik
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by frinik on Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:58 am

    I suspect Steel Fury was made by Graviteam with the idea of a tank simulator in mind not a military simulator like Steel Beasts or Arma are for example. The emphasis was driving the tanks , experiencing combat from the various positions in the vehicles. I think the tactics were not really considered or given prominence. It could be because of limited means Graviteam decided to limit the scope of their game or because the stock missions were( still are) rather small scale affairs and did not lend themselves to complicated manoeuvres.

    Txema
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by Txema on Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:26 pm

    lockie wrote:In the game u may order to er wingmen to stay "tight/wide". There are two icons in the map mode, which are responsible for mentioned operations.
    But in fact, these commands are very vaguely. After I've pressed icon, i.e. "tighten" I hardly remember during battle, what formation type I had exactly. If I've a look on the map the icons are always dimmed. So ,there are no any hints.
    That's why I decided to fix this issue. And now, in case I forgot what the "line" was, u've ability to open map and have a look. Both icons now could be highlighted.


    Hi Lockie,

    Thank you very much for paying attention to these details Smile

    However the problem now is that if you press the icon to stay "tight", for example, the icon is highlighted. Great ! But if you press the icon to stay "wide" later, then that icon is also highlighted, and you have the "tight" and "wide" icons highlighted at the same time !! That is very confusing for the player...
    Moreover, if you press the icon to stay "tight" once, then it is highlighted, but if you press it a second time then it is dimmed. Are you sure that pressing the "tight" icon a second time diasables it? Probably not, but the user can understand that. I think that unfortunately this fix can make things more confusing for the player... don't you think so?

    Txema
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    lockie
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by lockie on Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:19 pm

    Txema wrote:
    However the problem now is that if you press the icon to stay "tight", for example, the icon is highlighted. Great ! But if you press the icon to stay "wide" later, then that icon is also highlighted, and you have the "tight" and "wide" icons highlighted at the same time !! That is very confusing for the player...
    Hi, Txema
    Yes, it'll be confusing not only for the users, but for me also as author of this fix! I've only one question - why did u do that?

    if you press the icon to stay "tight" once, then it is highlighted, but if you press it a second time then it is dimmed. Are you sure that pressing the "tight" icon a second time diasables it?
    No I'm not sure, that's why I've made fix to be sure what the formation is. Now u may recognized it very easily. If icon highlighted, i.e. 'narrow', then u've exactly `narrow` formation.

    I think that unfortunately this fix can make things more confusing for the player... don't you think so?
    Yes, sometimes it may confuse, but only in case if u want to be confused deliberately, i.e. pres/unpress both icons Smile

    Txema
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by Txema on Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:22 am

    OK, thank you very much for your explanations.

    Txema

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    Re: Formation types

    Post by Tanker on Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:52 am

    lockie wrote:Yes, sometimes it may confuse, but only in case if u want to be confused deliberately, i.e. pres/unpress both icons Smile

    When designing, it is best to make things "foolproof" because the users will always attempt to do things that you didn't anticipate or that seem not logical to you.
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    lockie
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by lockie on Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:11 am

    Tanker wrote:When designing, it is best to make things "foolproof" because the users will always attempt to do things that you didn't anticipate or that seem not logical to you.
    There is no need "foolproof", coz user just get back to the situation without fix. I mean he still doesn't know what the formation is.

    PS
    Finally, I've found possibility to make a separate icon highliting. It does: now user may select only one formation length, i.e. "wide". If he select "narrow", then "wide" automatically dimmed. Thus no chance for user to select both icons. Will be added to the next update.
    Unfortunately, hatch indication still confusing, can't resolve. U never know did u close hatch or open.

    Tanker
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    Re: Formation types

    Post by Tanker on Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:58 pm

    lockie wrote:
    Tanker wrote:When designing, it is best to make things "foolproof" because the users will always attempt to do things that you didn't anticipate or that seem not logical to you.
    There is no need "foolproof", coz user just get back to the situation without fix. I mean he still doesn't know what the formation is.

    PS
    Finally, I've found possibility to make a separate icon highliting. It does: now user may select only one formation length, i.e. "wide". If he select "narrow", then "wide" automatically dimmed. Thus no chance for user to select both icons. Will be added to the next update.

    Congratulations. You've made it foolproof. Even I couldn't screw it up.

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