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    Faults of the Mighty Steel Beast

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    woofiedog
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    Faults of the Mighty Steel Beast

    Post by woofiedog on Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:45 pm

    Battle for Sandomierz Bulge... August of 1944

    On the night of August 12th, Capt. Ivushkin and crews of two tanks heard a sound of engines. In the morning of August 13th, Germans performed an artillery and air bombardment but without any success due to the good camouflage of the Soviet troops and tanks and overall lack of intelligence on Soviet positions. At 7:00, 11 King tigers moved straight into the Soviet ambush.

    During the three days long battle (August 11th to 13th), in the region of villages Stachow and Szyldow, 14 Kingtigerswere destroyed by tanks and asssault guns of the 6th Guard Tank Corps.


    http://www.achtungpanzer.com/tiger-tamers-battle-for-sandomierz-bulge-august-of-1944.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lvov%E2%80%93Sandomierz_Offensive#mediaviewer/File:BagrationMap2.jpg

    Surviving Tiger Tanks

    http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Tigers.pdf
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    frinik
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    Re: Faults of the Mighty Steel Beast

    Post by frinik on Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:55 am

    By late summer 1944 the quality of German tank crews training had decreased enormously due to shortages of fuel and the severe losses which forced green crews straight into battle. The Soviets had grown confident and their tactics had improved along with numerical and air superiority. The same story will be repeated a month later but at a much higher rate of losses for the Panzerwaffe against the Americans at Arras. Well concealed defences will prevail over poor reconnaissance, lack of adequate planning and over reliance on mere firepower( in that case the KwK42 of the Panther) and heavy armour.
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    lockie
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    Re: Faults of the Mighty Steel Beast

    Post by lockie on Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:09 pm

    woofiedog wrote:
    Surviving Tiger Tanks
    http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Tigers.pdf
    This is excellent info! Thank u!
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    woofiedog
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    Re: Faults of the Mighty Steel Beast

    Post by woofiedog on Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:23 pm

    By late summer 1944 the quality of German tank crews training had decreased enormously due to shortages of fuel and the severe losses which forced green crews straight into battle.

    Yes, there was a thinning of the ranks of veteran and battle trained German tanks crews at that period of the war. But one item I would give more credit of going against the German tank crews and units.  The fact that the Allies had a better strategy of mass producing a reliable tank [T-34 & Sherman] in large numbers and keeping the units in the front lines supplied with fresh tank mounts.

    It is a very simple plan indeed... overwhelm your adversary with greater numbers! Wink

    Panzer IV...                13,522
    Panzer V Panther...     6,557
    Panzer VI H Tiger I...  1,368
    Panzer VI B Tiger II... 569

    Shermans...               19,247 Shermans were issued to the US Army and about 1,114 to the US Marine Corps. The U.S. also supplied 17,184 to Great Britain (some of which in turn went to the Canadians and the Free Poles), while the Soviet Union received 4,102 and an estimated 812 were transferred to China

    T-34/76...                  35,120
    T-34-85...                  48,950

    KV-1...                       5,219

    Tanker
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    Re: Faults of the Mighty Steel Beast

    Post by Tanker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:58 am

    This is an old and well fought out argument. The T34 was much superior to the Sherman. If it wasn't for hidebound and outdated ideas of tank warfare and interference by high ranking American officers, the US soldier could have enjoyed quantity along with a better tank than the inadequate Sherman. Heck we could have just produced T-34s for our use. If they had started working on the Pershing in 1942 it would have been online in time for Normandy and the battles across France and into Germany. Even an adequate gun, like the Firefly eventually got, would have helped the situation but Patton was satisfied with the Sherman the way it was. I think it was a tragic miscalculation.
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    frinik
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    Re: Faults of the Mighty Steel Beast

    Post by frinik on Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:33 am

    I don't buy the T-34 is much better than the Sherman argument. The 1944 model with the 85 mm gun is somewhat better but even Soviet tests on the Tiger II show that the US 76 mm gun had better penetration than their 85 mm one. The ergonomics were better on the Sherman, the quality of steel and manufacturing as well. The Sherman need a lower silhouette, a better gun( may be the Kwk40 L48 would have been a perfect fit) but otherwise was a fine tank.  Considering the Allies overwhelming air superiority, logistical and even numerical superiority( in material) then it was a winning argument.

    For all their mystical reputation, the Tiger I and II were mistakes. The Germans would have been better to introduce the Panther in 1942 instead of the Tiger I , work out it's flaws and reduce it's weight in time for the defensive battles of 1943. Also revamp the Panzer IV with sloping armour and it's kwk40 L48 to be produced in large numbers in 1942-43.

    Re the battle of Sandomierz, to put things in perpective it happened just a few days after the Soviets got their asses kicked at Radzymin with one of the Tank corps being completely destroyed and losing almost 300 tanks and spgs. The Germans could still bite and hurt them. I visited Radzymin 25 years ago. No traces of the battle except Soviet & Polish( communist) war memorials...

    That'd be nice to recreate missions about both battles...

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    Re: Faults of the Mighty Steel Beast

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